I am somewhat interested in this. I was talking to someone about a week ago about a GTN 650, and what they thought about the idea of putting one in a CTLS. What’s the asking price? I am highly considering going experimental LSA. Wasn’t planning on doing it for a while, but if the price is right, I would not mind jumping on this.

Thanks,

Gee

Seems like overkill for a VFR platform,  no?

Probably is overkill in all honesty. My thoughts are to go experimental though, and in the process, have the limitations to allow IFR. I use my CT for business travel, and being able to pop through a thin cloud layer would really be nice. I have no intention of going into hard IFR, but often times in the morning around where I fly, there is a thin layer of clouds around 800-1000 feet, no more than a few hundred feet thick, which prevents me from being able to fly. Haven’t decided on whether I am actually going to do this. I also fly with a GTN 750 on a daily basis, and I very much love it, so a 650 would be a very nice thing to have.  Either way though, a GTN is a nice nest egg to have in the event you do end up in trouble with the weather.

The mind boggles at all the regs being busted, lol.

56 minutes ago, SportFlyer1 said:

The mind boggles at all the regs being busted, lol.

Please note that I said I would like to, not that I have flown a CT in IMC.

I have to ask how so?  I am a commercially rated pilot with an instrument rating, so no problem there.  If one goes experimental LSA, you are allowed to set your own operating limitations, as long as they are approved by the FAA, and including IMC in the limitations has been done per another member on this forum.  Finally, experimental allows one to make modifications without manufacturer approval, meaning I could equip the aircraft to be in compliant with 91.205  So, if I am instrument rated, and aircraft meets the requirements of 91.205, then where are regulations being busted?

You have correctly pointed out the loophole area that would allow IFR flight. My error came from looking at it from my perspective as a sport pilot flying an SLSA. Of course both I and my plane are prohibited from IFR flight and flight in furtherance of a business. So as near as I can tell, you are correct.

An interesting side light to all of this are some practical things you might look into. Part 23 IFR aircraft have  dual heated pitots and at least one certified GPS like you mentioned above. Also as far as I know, Rotax does not allow flight into IMC with its ULS engine. They make an IFR certified model that of course costs more. I guess it comes down to what you can talk your DAR into when you go experimental. There are several guys here who have done that and can offer good tips on greasing the skids on that. Good luck!

On 1/19/2019 at 12:03 PM, SportFlyer1 said:

Of course both I and my plane are prohibited from IFR flight and flight in furtherance of a business. 

What limitation are you referring to with the furtherance of business?

No sport pilot (or private I think) can fly in the furtherance of a business. Also I'm not allowed to fly as an airplane salesman, go figure.

I’m not sure about a sport pilot, but private pilots can certainly fly for the purpose of business travel. Maybe you’re conflating the rule about flying for hire as a private pilot?

Probably a confabulation on my part, and anyway it is never enforced.

Sport,

You may be thinking of 14 CFR 91.327 (a) which prohibits aircraft having a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category (S-LSA) from operating for compensation or hire except to tow a glider or an unpowered ultralight or to conduct flight training.

Or you may be thinking of 14 CFR 91.319 (e) which prohibits aircraft issued an experimental certificate from operating for compensation or hire except to tow an LSA glider or to conduct flight training.

Or you may be thinking of 14 CFR 61.315 (c) which prohibits a Sport Pilot (the person - not the aircraft) from operating an aircraft for compensation or hire, or in furtherance of a business. This last is a bit more restrictive.

Mike Koerner

That sounds about right. I think your  own E-LSA can be used to receive your flight training, but may not be used to give flight training to others.  And while the sport aircraft can tow something, a sport pilot cannot. There are so many don'ts its hard to keep track of em all. For instance, a sport pilot must have at least 3 miles viz no matter what airspace he's in. Which means he cannot request special VFR clearance (1 mile), contrary to what my DPE thought, lol.

I see that a private may fly in furtherance of a business or employment, if the flight is only incidental to that business.

My ELSA operating limitations allow IFR flight if the airplane is properly equipped.  Just saying.

I'm a SP so not for me, but that GPS unit would not be overkill if I were a PP interested in IFR.

3 minutes ago, FlyingMonkey said:

My ELSA operating limitations allow IFR flight if the airplane is properly equipped.  Just saying.

I'm a SP so not for me, but that GPS unit would not be overkill if I were a PP interested in IFR.

Thank you FlyingMonkey.  I thought I had seen a post somewhere where you had mentioned that.  Curiosity question, was that difficult to get a DAR to approve?  If you are willing, I may PM you one day and ask a few questions related to going experimental.  I have a basic understanding through some research, but haven't really looked into the "fine details" yet.  Still trying to decide if I want to take the plunge or not.  In your opinion, is it worth it?

4 hours ago, SportFlyer1 said:

That sounds about right. I think your  own E-LSA can be used to receive your flight training, but may not be used to give flight training to others.  And while the sport aircraft can tow something, a sport pilot cannot. There are so many don'ts its hard to keep track of em all. For instance, a sport pilot must have at least 3 miles viz no matter what airspace he's in. Which means he cannot request special VFR clearance (1 mile), contrary to what my DPE thought, lol.

I see that a private may fly in furtherance of a business or employment, if the flight is only incidental to that business.

It can be confusing figuring out the sport pilot (pilot) limitations vs the sport pilot (aircraft) limitations.  Some of the limitations do intertwine, such as the IFR/IMC limitations.  The ASTM says they don't allow IFR/IMC in a light sport aircraft, but the FAA will allow it (IMC) under experimental.  Even more confusing, a current instrument rated pilot can file and fly IFR in a light sport aircraft (if 91.205 is met), as long as actual IMC is avoided (Aircraft limitation), at least as the current rules are written.  So many gotchas to keep straight when flying a light sport aircraft as a private/commercial pilot.  Some restrictions follow the pilot, and some follow the aircraft.

pretty good summary here:

https://generalaviationnews.com/2017/04/17/can-you-fly-ifr-in-an-lsa/

9 hours ago, garrettgee2001 said:

Thank you FlyingMonkey.  I thought I had seen a post somewhere where you had mentioned that.  Curiosity question, was that difficult to get a DAR to approve?  If you are willing, I may PM you one day and ask a few questions related to going experimental.  I have a basic understanding through some research, but haven't really looked into the "fine details" yet.  Still trying to decide if I want to take the plunge or not.  In your opinion, is it worth it?

I didn't ask for it, the DAR just added it in.  I think he said he puts in all limitations that the FAA allows when he does a conversion.  Other inspectors certsinly do things differently.

I think the ELSA change was one of the best decisions I ever made.  I know longer have to ask factory permission to put in a different type of battery or other part, and having taken the 16 hour repairman course, I can do any maintenance I'm comfortable doing, including condition inspections.  I have not yet seen a downside, but any impact to perceived value would only be seen at sale time.