Jim Meade Posted November 6, 2013 Report Share Posted November 6, 2013 You do not need a TSO'd or approved GPS before 2020 to participate in ADS-B out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted November 6, 2013 Report Share Posted November 6, 2013 Hi jim! Read my edit above Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 Believe me when I say I have been researching this since I recieved my aircraft, in which we thought would be ADS-B out equiped. The Trig unit wil work legally in Europe on the single frequency, forgot which one of the two it was, but not here in the US. I've spoken to Garmin also, a few times, and I agree with what was posted here. However, if there is a hook-up that will trigger the ground station, I'm all for it at this time. I'm still waiting for a response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S3flyer Posted November 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 Rich -- the Trigs are now TSO'ed in the US for under 18k feet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 The Garmin 330 has an upgrade path to the 330ES, but what about us owners of the lowly GTX-327? Are we going to have to suck it up and buy a new transponder AND a TSO'ed GPS source, or will there be some kind of trade-in/upgrade path? I sure hope this stuff gets cheaper in the next few years before 2020, but "cheap" and "TSO'ed" don't really go together in the same sentence... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S3flyer Posted November 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 Andy, Don't hold your breath. The ES upgrade is software only and costs $1500 so I can't image Garmin giving much credit for an used transponder. No one can say what prices will be once the deadline gets closer. Certified GPS do seem to be coming down so perhaps all-in-one units will do the same. Flight Design may not approve it but the least expensive conventional path I've found for 327 owners is to replace with a Trig 31. The 327 has a market value of around $1200 and a new Trig is $2700. Net cost would be $1500 plus installation. You'd then have a TSO-166b Mode S transponder. Add a TSO'ed GPS source when it hits the right price point then you're 2020 legal. My crystal ball is somewhat cloudy but I'm guessing transponders will remain at the same relative costs over time while GPS units fall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 Thanks Dave...I wonder if the TT-31 is approved by Flight Design, I might look into that. $1500 is doable on the transponder side. The part that is worrisome is the TSO'ed GPS source. I sure as hell don't want to go out and spend $10K to put a Garmin 430 or equivalent in my CTSW! What are guys that have airplanes like a Cessna 140 supposed to do, spend $15k on TSO'ed ADS-B gear for an airplane worth $20k? I hope something happens to make this easier on people, otherwise you are going to see a lot of perfectly good but inexpensive airplanes get parked for good. That would be heartbreaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 This is if you fly in C, B, or A space. ADS-B is not required otherwise, and there is another provision: permission from ATC. I have a feeling someone is going to wise up and make a GPS unit that doesn't have a map, or navigation, or any of that crap for the old birds. It will just receive and report position for ADSB-out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S3flyer Posted November 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 I have a feeling someone is going to wise up and make a GPS unit that doesn't have a map, or navigation, or any of that crap for the old birds. It will just receive and report position for ADSB-out. Already is :-) There is a TSO'ed GPS for around $2900 from Freeflight that works with Garmin, Trig and Collins. The Skyguard (another thread here) transmitter uses a $32 hockey puck WAAS GPS (non-certified). Let's just hope the trend for TSO'ed GPS units move towards the $32... Skyguard appears to be positioning for a new market. Instead of looking to replace an existing Mode C transponder with a Mode S/ADS-B unit, they are producing a UAT product which allows you to keep your Mode C (which will still be required in 2020) transponder. Right now its a portable but is going through the current TSO process. Seems to me we might see more products in this space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 This is if you fly in C, B, or A space. ADS-B is not required otherwise, and there is another provision: permission from ATC. I have a feeling someone is going to wise up and make a GPS unit that doesn't have a map, or navigation, or any of that crap for the old birds. It will just receive and report position for ADSB-out. That's what I'm hoping. A cheap receiver only would be great, but the TSO on it will probably mean a $1000+ pricetag. They'd sell like hotcakes, especially if you could output the received data to a portable GPS or iPad for navigation. I wonder if the FAA would allow a "hybrid" setup like that for IFR use, since you are just using an external display on a TSO'ed GPS... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 That's what I'm hoping. A cheap receiver only would be great, but the TSO on it will probably mean a $1000+ pricetag. They'd sell like hotcakes, especially if you could output the received data to a portable GPS or iPad for navigation. I wonder if the FAA would allow a "hybrid" setup like that for IFR use, since you are just using an external display on a TSO'ed GPS... That... Is a really good question! Seriously, a GPS receiver-only unit that only outputs coordinates and status is all most of us little guys need. The FAA said one of the biggest problems with portables is they lack RAIM capability. Having a TSO'd receiver with RAIM, and software with georeferenced charts would be awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 Dave, Andy, Anti Dave, thanks for the update on the Trig unit. I E-mailed and got a response from the Skyguard people. For Dave and I it may be as simple as buying their transmitter for $975, like Dave had mentioned on the ADS-B thread, as long as Skyguard gets the TSO blessing. We have the GDL-39 and the 795/96 display, so all we'll need is the transmitter. Their tranceiver goes for $1475 I believe. That may solve your situation Andy, but I don't know how it'll work with the Dynon display. Here's the link that Dave listed on the other thread. May be you can E-mail them and iron out what they may be able to do with the avionics you now have. http://www.skyguardtwx.com/UAT_Transmitter.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 Dave, My S-4 has a 12VDC outlet under the pilot and co-pilot side. It offers direct access to the space under the baggage compartment. A additional 12VDC outlet can be piggy-backed from either of these (with a LOA I'm sure from TL) and installed in this space with the transmitter If the transmitter 12VDC plug is long enough then the original outlet can be used or split with a duel splitter, so, I don't believe an LOA would be necessary. I believe the plug would be long enough if the transmitter is installed in this location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S3flyer Posted November 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 Hi Rich, The S3 has the same 12VDC plug arrangement but the baggage area is a lot different. The S4 has that nice open area while the S3 has 2 ski tubes that are only accessible by removing the seat backs. I'd think we'd both be mounting the unit as far back as practical, to the side and clear of the chute up. Still should be easy to move a plug back there or fabricate a custom power connector. I also want to find an enclosure to secure and protect the unit and hide the cords for aesthetics. Perhaps Bill C. can give us volume discount :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 I attended a Garmin rep's presentation last month. The GDL88 was discussed. This unit receives on both 1090 and 978 frequencies which provides air to air and also provides ADS-B "in" ground uplink. It transmits on 978 (UAT) for under 18,000 ft usage. It is remote mounted and can connect to any Garmin GPS from 495/6 on up for traffic picture. It receives and transmits in both freq's. It has an option for internal WAAS certified. GPS. The GDL-88 also will send out squawk code from our present transponders which complies with ADS-B "out" req's. No new "ES" transponder needed. If one doesn't want to go to the extra expense of upgrading their GPS to get the traffic picture, there is also an oral warning ("aircraft 10 o'clock, high, same, low" plus range) along with red warning light for dash installation. Estimated to be around $4,500 (with WAAS GPS) + installation. This results in ADS-B "in and also certified ADS-B "out" and meets all req's for 2020. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S3flyer Posted November 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 Kind of shows the difference in TSO costs: Skyguard has a transceiver solution for $1500 with the GDL-88 running $4500. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 Hi Dave. Yeah, this isn't going to be cheap to comply. Does one need to purchase an ES Transponder with the Skyguard or does it also send out current transponder squawks like the GKL-88? Also the price of the GDL-88 includes TSO'd GPS - not sure if Skyguard also had this? Not trying to push any particular system here, just collecting data and trying to learn more about ADS-B. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S3flyer Posted November 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 Hi Dick -- no transponder needed or used with the Skyguard transmitter or transceiver. It only transmits on the 978MHz band so you're restricted to under 18,000 feet I believe the GDL-88 is dual band. The Skyguard sends out a squawk code which, right now, must be set via an iPhone/iPad/Android app. They're working on a solution to read the output from a 327 so you only need to dial in the squawk code once. Skyguard is pursuing TSO-154c certifications for the ADS-B transmission. They include an uncertified WAAS GPS at this time that would need to be replaced in 2020 based on the draft standards. Could change in the next 6 years. IMHO -- the only reason to be ADS-B out currently is to receive traffic. If that's not something you want, then I'd suggest waiting a few more years. BTW -- I'm not pushing any particular solution. Like Rich, I've just been doing a lot of research on what is needed in 2020 and what will work in present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 To be quite honest, I see no reason to equip for the 2020 adsb until they at least finalize the TSO for equipment. There's exciting things coming out (gdl88 is TSO'd, the skyguard is not yet, but they plan to when it is finalized). Until then, I prefer to just wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug G. Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 Ok, so I want in/out and I want it all permanently mounted, not portable, interfaced with my 696, and approved by FD. Is too that to much to ask? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 Hi Dick, I'd like to avoid the cost of the 88, so let's hope the Skyguard unit gets certification. That would be the cheapest solution for those of us that have the GDL-39 and 795/96 display. We're all hoping that the prices will receed as the time gets closer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 ADSB units were extremely expensive a couple years ago. They are coming down rapidly. Again though, I do not want to buy anything unless the TSOs are finalized. I would hate to buy something, and then the TSO changes and my equipment becomes worthless. Also, the FAA might grant more exemptions too. There's a LOT of pressure on them from the GA world about this mandate. Where I fly, I am just under the edge of a Class C airspace when departing our airfield, Class D. There is no other ADSB-out areas for 50 miles around. ADSB-out is almost a waste because of arrangements made with our port authority and the class C authority to keep us clear of their airspace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S3flyer Posted November 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 FAA could claim victory really quick if they allowed a non-certified GPS WAAS for VFR flight with the appropriate integrity/accuracy bit checked. Could have the accuracy of the GPS checked against a certified standard during your bi-annual transponder check by a certified avionics technician. That would make too much sense so could never happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 I've called EAA and AOPA to help pressure the FAA to use non-cert GPS units with WAAS capability to trigger the ground stations. If it's accurate it's accurate, period. There was a letter in this months AOPA/Pilot regarding this very subject. Give these organizations a call and let them know of our concerns. May be a few of the better units with WAAS capability will be set free. The 795/96 certainly fits this catagory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted November 8, 2013 Report Share Posted November 8, 2013 Rich, good plan to send a note to EAA & AOPA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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