Adam Posted May 4, 2012 Report Share Posted May 4, 2012 I received the following email from John Gilmore. Looks like CPS may have supplied some substandard fuel hoses in the Rotax 5 year rubber kits. From: John Gilmore [mailto:jgilmore@flightdesignusa.com] Sent: Friday, May 04, 2012 12:53 PM To: Adam Coffey Subject: Safety Alert regarding CPS fuel hose kits Dear Flight Design CTSW and CT2K owner We received a Service Difficulty Report on Thursday regarding an airworthiness issue with certain fuel line shipped with CPS (California Power Systems) kits for compliance with the Rotax 5 year rubber part replacement requirement. An overnight test done with a sample in auto fuel showed that the suspect fuel line degraded very quickly. As a result we are requesting that any owner that has used a CPS kit to replace their fuel lines do not fly your airplane until we know how to identify the suspect fuel hose. We will follow up with more specific information soon. If you have any further questions please contact Dave Armando at 860-963-7272 or topservice@flightdesignusa.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tfdixon Posted May 4, 2012 Report Share Posted May 4, 2012 I wonder if this has any connection to the CTSW engine failure, dead stick landing and eventual crash into airport perimeter fence - fuel starvation was not allegedly and issue - on 3/16/12 at Venice,FL ? I received the following email from John Gilmore. Looks like CPS may have supplied some substandard fuel hoses in the Rotax 5 year rubber kits. From: John Gilmore [mailto:jgilmore@flightdesignusa.com] Sent: Friday, May 04, 2012 12:53 PM To: Adam Coffey Subject: Safety Alert regarding CPS fuel hose kits Dear Flight Design CTSW and CT2K owner We received a Service Difficulty Report on Thursday regarding an airworthiness issue with certain fuel line shipped with CPS (California Power Systems) kits for compliance with the Rotax 5 year rubber part replacement requirement. An overnight test done with a sample in auto fuel showed that the suspect fuel line degraded very quickly. As a result we are requesting that any owner that has used a CPS kit to replace their fuel lines do not fly your airplane until we know how to identify the suspect fuel hose. We will follow up with more specific information soon. If you have any further questions please contact Dave Armando at 860-963-7272 or topservice@flightdesignusa.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted May 5, 2012 Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 Hi TFdixon, The answer is no it had nothing to do with that engine out. I'm very firmilar with that incident and talked to the pilot and investigators.. absolutely nothing. On the initial investigation they could find a thing and the engine ran fine afterward. It's still under investigation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N89WD Posted May 5, 2012 Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 Roger, what's your fuel hose ruling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted May 5, 2012 Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 Hi All, This is just my opinion and FD makes the final call. I have done 23 hose changes and I think that is more than any single shop in the US for CT's. I have used the CPS hose kits. I quit using the fuel hose from them last May and only purchased the coolant and oil plus the small parts. I have been buying the fuel line locally and it has a lining. Anyone that has come to me after last may 2011 does not have the CPS fuel line. During my time working with these hose changes I have made some personal changes in the way I install the fuel hose and the type of fuel hose in use. I have had two aircraft that had some debris out of these 23. I had one that was caught during the test flight after everything was done. It sputtered in the air. We landed and I pulled the carbs and found a piece of debris in a jet, re-mounted the carbs, problem solved. I had another that seemed more of an issue and still don't know exactly why. Had it sputter, pulled the carbs and cleaned them. Problem solved for a short while and the owner reported more debris later. Stated he thought it was the hose flaking. I haven't examined the plane since or the hose in question. Because of the fuel system design it had to be the short piece of 1/4" hose off the fuel pump to the cross over tube. That is the only hose piece that could get to the carb. This was in fact a piece of 1/4" fuel injection hose. He stated it was flaking. He stated he did a test with pieces in fuel in a jar and the hose failed. I tried the same test here with the same hose plus the carburation fuel hose sitting in a jar for days and had no issues. So I don't know what was going on. The only issue was the dye on the fuel injection hose got on my hands from the outer skin covering. These hose do have dyes and mold release that may come off on your skin under the right circumstances. The hose can't be just tossed in a jar with fuel and then say look it swelled. The hose was only supposed to have fuel in the inside of the hose. Throwing it in a jar will have the reinforcing threads soak up the fuel and also expose the outside lining which wasn't meant to be in fuel. To do a proper test. Block off one end, fill the hose with fuel and block off that end. That way the part of the hose meant to be exposed to fuel is and the other parts not meant to be in fuel are not exposed. I cut the hoses open and saw no issues. I know many many owners have used this CPS fuel injection hose without any issues. What do I really think? It is in the installation process that has caused some issue which have been confused or mixed with a real hose degradation issue. These need to be separated out. I think FD may have over reacted when they said for no one to fly if they used a CPS hose kit. That more or less means your grounded. It should have been stated that they don't want you to fly until you look/inspect the carb float bowls and gascolator. If nothing was found then off you go. When you file a negative service report you have to put in or remove other possible causes before sending out a letter that panics a fleet and make sure any testing wasn't flawed. I have had numerous calls today and had to calm many owners that have been flying since the hose change with CPS hose kits and have had no issues. These aircraft have been flying for up to a year including myself without any issues. The one that I know about that had debris said it happened within hours to a day. All you need to do is pull down the carb float bowl and look inside. This is supposed to be done every 200 hrs anyway. Even without a hose change I have found small debris in carbs many times and it is usually so small as to not be an issue for clogging. I just had an engine with a flat tappet lifter fail in flight. Ran on three cylinders, but never quit. Does that mean Rotax should shut down the entire fleet because of that failure? The tappet failure incident may happen once a year. The correct procedure is usually to inspect a suspect part. Good research and investigation before publishing is the way to go. If you don't have a problem, don't force yourself mentally to have one. The chance of hose debris or any debris has been with you since the day that engine started. Last, but not least we have 6 CT's at my field. I don't think any other airport in the US has 6 at one field that gets monitored as much as these 6 do. They have certainly become the basis for a controlled watch on every single thing they normally do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddo Posted May 5, 2012 Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 I have had that hose since last June. No issues. If it was me I would just take a look the the gascolator and carb bowls. If ethanol was going to be an issues it happens right away not months or a year later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted May 5, 2012 Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 A 3 sentence notification sure stirred up a hornet's nest. Personally, I'm glad that someone is giving it some attention. And BTW, we deserve to know who the "Safety Officer" is. It's just basic personal responsibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hammer Posted May 5, 2012 Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 I recently had the hose change and then (unfortunately) the plane had to sit out in the Arizona heat for weeks. I just completed a 9 hour flight (four hours of mild turbulence) with one stop for fuel and had no issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted May 5, 2012 Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 If FD wants to make all this mandatory it needs to be a "Safety Directive" and not an SB or SA with directions on what they want done. For me the correct action would be to just inspect the gascolator and float bowls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chanik Posted May 5, 2012 Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 Roger is quite correct; we went over the confusing regulatory language morass in this topic http://ctflier.com/index.php?/topic/1149-its-an-faa-regulation/page__st__20 Still I'm a bit freaked out about all this flaking hose/ plugged needle jet stuff so I'm glad mine isn't due for another few months (actually I could skip it as ELSA but that isn't prudent either.) Hopefully FD will do some thorough testing ASAP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony & Rose Posted May 5, 2012 Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 Roger: Thank you for your time and detailed information. We here concur with your findings, method and conclusion(s). We further concur that the 'hose ends and attaching' need careful attention when 'cutting' and installing. We operated the first two hours within landing view of our field. We pulled the carb's at three hours. Very minor items discovered. Currently 17+ hrs on changeout with zero problems. Scheduled for followup take-a-part at 25hrs. Thanks again, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogerck Posted May 5, 2012 Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 My partner and I did have serious deterioration in the 1/4" fuel line that resulted in rubber debries in the foat bowl and engine loss of power on take off. Yes, the engine did maintain 4000 rpm, but if you don't know what's going on, it can be pretty scary. The hose we used was Gates non-fuel injection purchased from a local auto store. No connection with CPS. The problem hose deteriorated quickly. It was one day from change out to engine loss of power. I am not an expert, but my recommendation would be to fill a sample piece of hose with gas and allow it to soak for a few days before installing. Then check with a probe to determine if the inner lining is softening or deteriorating. Fill the inside, rather than soaking the entire hose, since the outer cover will normally soften slightly, based on my samplings. This has to be a batch quality control issue. Roger Kuhn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
round_peg Posted May 5, 2012 Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 Added to Roger K.'s comments (I am the other partner in 09W), we had three incidences of debris in the float bowls after the hose change-out. So this problem is very real, to the people who've had it. We feel the problem was finally solved by replacing the 1/4" hose but we also installed a clear glass inline fuel filter downstream of the fuel pump in the process just to be sure. We were able to take that precaution as an ELSA. I presume the SLSA type certificate owners could not make this modification. We have also noticed a brownish discoloration of the fuel when drained from the sump, when the airplane has been sitting for a few days. Months now after the hose change-out this discoloration seems to be diminishing, but it does speak to something in the fuel system getting into solution. This did not occur before the hose change-out, so the basic logic is clear even if the precise cause is not. So I would say that the mystery of why some CTs are afflicted and others not cannot be written off. Whether it's a matter of materials or procedure, or both, is still unknown. Either way, FD and/or Rotax need to get together and figure it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BMcCand - N248CT Posted May 5, 2012 Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 I purchased the CPS kit, including a new fuel pump with integral hoses. I had to replace the intake hose to the pump from gascolator. The Gates 5/16" hi pressure fuel hose really didn't fit over the hose barbs at the gascolator. So I purchased the 7.5mm hose from FD, $48 / meter for 3m. That worked fine for all the fuel work, including wing roots. It wasn't by design, but I ended not using CPS fuel hose at all. A local mechanic said 7.5mm hose might have been available from BMW or Mercedes dealers, but I didn't try them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted May 5, 2012 Report Share Posted May 5, 2012 I will be interested in discussions of the various kinds of gas, not only ethanol, but the various winter blends. There is anecdotal evidence that winter blends affect components of the fuel system. So, over the course of time, it would be nice to see this issue addressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Safety Officer Posted May 6, 2012 Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 I have pulled my previous post and will soften the rhetoric. I have talked to the reporting party. They have some fuel hose from last year before the sale of CPS and a fuel hose from after the sale. They have reported that they had a plane have an emergency landing after take off right after the hose change. They said they tested the hose and found it was flaking and getting into the carb and that this happens in a very short period. Both sets of those hose seem to have an issue. This hose had no lining and usually good fuel hose has a lining. This hose was gates hose and they are contacting gates and the FAA in case they need to issue a recall on the Gate fuel hose sold by CPS. Right now they are trying to determine with gates help how to figure out which hose is which and if there was a Mfg defect or whatever issue with the hose there may be. So right now it's a wait and see. I still believe FD at least worded the alert poorly. The comment "As a result we are requesting that any owner that has used a CPS kit to replace their fuel lines do not fly your airplane until we know how to identify the suspect fuel hose". This basically says your grounded. I hope they read this and re-issue something along these lines. Talking to the reporting party and I fully agree the wording should have read more like this, "If you have used CPS fuel hose for the hose replacement do not fly until you have inspected the carb float bowl and gascolator to rule out any fuel hose degrading. If fuel hose degrading is found the hose involved needs replacement before the next flight" If no fuel hose issues are found then regular flight operation may proceed". Most of the mechanics I have talked to and the party mentioned above are telling callers just to take a look at the carb bowls and gascolators. This would relieved any panic this caused over the last few days and would have given people some direction and a way to check their fuel system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy MacGregor Posted May 6, 2012 Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 I have used the Gates hose for many years and have never had a single problem until 2 months ago a customer had a clogging issue. We later found one small piece of rubber that had likely been cut off while being pushed over a hose barb and then found it's way to the bowl. I don't believe that Gates fuel injection hoses are defective but I do believe like Roger L mentioned that a extensive ground run and float bowl inspection is absolulty imperative . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rookie Posted May 6, 2012 Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 To be on the safe side I'm going to check my carb float bowls. However considering it's been 4 months and 30 hours since my hose replacement ( with no problems) I doubt I'll find any debris. al meyer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted May 6, 2012 Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 Hi Al, I didn't use CPS hose on yours. I haven't used CPS fuel hose for a little over a year now. Your's is not even fuel injection hose which was the one they had the issue with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rookie Posted May 6, 2012 Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 Roger, Thanks for the heads up. I wondered why I had so much hose left over from the pkg. I sent you. Any update on Dolly? al, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
round_peg Posted May 6, 2012 Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 It seems worth reiteration that the problem experienced on 09W did not involve fuel injection hose from CPS. It was Gates automotive fuel line. After installing this line, debris was found in the float bowls three times. This problem did not go away until the 1/4" lines were replaced with material that was tested before installation. However we still have the fuel discoloration issue. It does not seem to be an engine performance problem but we are watching it very carefully. These appear to be separate issues that may or may not be related to a batch of hose, ethanol blends, or winter car gas blending. At this point we all seem to be theorizing without hard data. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Bozo Posted May 6, 2012 Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 There seems to be some doubt about the Gates Hose coming apart. It did. Look at the post that I made.. Posted 12 February 2012 - 05:04 PM... to see a picture of the inside of the hose that was was actually coming apart. You can see it in the picture and best of all I saved the hose here in my shop so that if anyone doubts what was going on they can inspect it. I had four (4) occurrences of engine extreme rough and severe loss of power that were attributed to the hose flaking off small pieces of rubber and ending up int the float bowl which then evidently got into the fuel orifice. When this happens I don't recall the resulting RPM loss but it was severe and rightly so since half of the engine was essentially shut down. The hose from the fuel filter to the crossover fuel divider is the HOLY GRAIL to say the least. Since that hose is so important it deserves the very best scrutiny in regards to its serviceability to remain impervious to deterioration of any kind. Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
round_peg Posted May 6, 2012 Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 There seems to be some doubt about the Gates Hose coming apart. It did. Look at the post that I made.. Posted 12 February 2012 - 05:04 PM... to see a picture of the inside of the hose that was was actually coming apart. You can see it in the picture and best of all I saved the hose here in my shop so that if anyone doubts what was going on they can inspect it. I had four (4) occurrences of engine extreme rough and severe loss of power that were attributed to the hose flaking off small pieces of rubber and ending up int the float bowl which then evidently got into the fuel orifice. When this happens I don't recall the resulting RPM loss but it was severe and rightly so since half of the engine was essentially shut down. The hose from the fuel filter to the crossover fuel divider is the HOLY GRAIL to say the least. Since that hose is so important it deserves the very best scrutiny in regards to its serviceability to remain impervious to deterioration of any kind. Larry Larry, we saw the same flaking inside of our hose. Still the way I read this thread and the other on the fuel hose issues is that the source of the problem is still ambiguous. Apparently Gates hose hasn't been source of problems until recently, which possibly suggests a batch issue. But it would have to be a pretty large batch I would think to have the reports so widely scattered. The other problem with nailing this as the source is that some have experienced the problem with Gates fuel injection hose purchased from CPS, and other with low pressure fuel line purchased at an auto parts store. This tends to cancel out the bad batch theory. Or maybe I've really missed something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Bozo Posted May 6, 2012 Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 Mitch, Mine was the Gates fuel injection hose that is shown in picture coming apart. I do have the numbers that were on the hose if it matters to trace a batch. Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredG Posted May 6, 2012 Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 I went back and read the thread from February on Gates hose deterioration. This matters to me because my hoses were replaced in February with a CPS kit (now 12 hours on the new hoses). Performance has been flawless. A few observations. First, my sump was inspected and was pristine. The CPS fuel hose on my plane (the hose to the fuel pump, the only one I could see clearly) was marked "Made in Mexico". A small section was cut from the hose and immersed in gasoline. No deterioration was noted (8 hours and counting). From what I have read on the previous post, it seemed that only Gates hose marked "Made in USA" has deteriorated in fuel. Hose marked "Made in Mexico" has not deteriorated. If possible, it would be great if others could see if this pattern remains consistent. Has any Made in Mexico Gates hose been implicated? So far, based on very limited information from this forum, it seems like only Made in USA hose has deteriorated. It would help owners, shops, and FD limit the extent of any remediation or recall if we can limit this to a subset of hoses. Thanks. Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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