Kevin-Cal Power Sys Posted May 7, 2012 Report Share Posted May 7, 2012 I first heard about this hose issue on May 1st and I talked with our Product Manager, Josh Solis. We are in contact with Gates, as well as the repair faculty that performed the hose change on the aircraft that had to make an emergency landing. I have to agree that a proper test procedure to determine the cause has not been performed yet. We have sold hose from the same roll to dozens of customers around the globe without these issues. At this time no one can poisitvely identify what the cause of degradation is. We will remove the hose from our inventory until we can determine what is causing these problems. Rest assured that safety is our number one concern and CPS is taking this issue seriously. As I learn more I will update this post to keep everyone informed. Kevin KaneOperations ManagerCalifornia Power Systems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted May 7, 2012 Report Share Posted May 7, 2012 Hi Kevin, From what I understand the hose in use has all come from the old CPS and the same reel. (correct me if I'm wrong). So that means hose that has been furnished to at least 100 -200+ customers has had no issues except for one dealer and it has all come from a single roll or batch. Could a section have been bad, absolutely. The But side of this issue is no one else seems to be having a degradation issue with this hose around the US and maybe other places in the world? I know the test were done incorrectly. I was told the Tecnam that had the issue had a huge amount of black debris in the carb bowl and not just a few specs. If you have a few specs in the carb bowl that is most likely just from the cutting process from the mechanic's tool, mechanical damage from pushing over the barbed fittings and mechanical damage from too much crimp force on the hose. The correct thing to do is have have people just check there float bowls and gascolator. Looks like as this moves issue on the owners are showing that cooler heads prevail. Larry, Your 1/4" piece of hose came from an auto parts store and not CPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Bozo Posted May 7, 2012 Report Share Posted May 7, 2012 OK on that Roger, about it coming from the auto parts store. It is possible that it might have been from the same manufacturing run as the stuff that others are having problems with. If there really was a bad run of hose then I would look farther than only one roll at one outlet as is the case with the piece that found it's way in to my plane. Someplace farther back on the supply chain there has so be some relationship. It would be interesting to see if the nomenclature on the CPS hose is the same as the piece that I have that came from the auto parts store. Tomorrow I will make a note of it when I get to the airport. Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredG Posted May 7, 2012 Report Share Posted May 7, 2012 Larry, the hose you photographed and posted on the Forum in February had "Made in USA" stamped on the side. Hose from the CPS kit used on my plane said "Made in Mexico". So, there are at least two suppliers. I have not yet heard of any CPS hose marked "Made in Mexico" deteriorating in fuel or flaking on the inside surface. Has anyone else? Thanks. Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy MacGregor Posted May 7, 2012 Report Share Posted May 7, 2012 I don't work at CPS anymore so I can't speak on there behalf but I would like to put in my insight on our previous purchasing history while I was working there. Up until about 3months before CPS was sold all Gates fuel hoses were purchases by 25ft rolls usually about 4-5 rolls at a time of each size. Because of the high demand for the hose we were getting in Shipments about every 3-6months, roughly. Just before CPS was sold we were notified by our supplier that the hose was available in large quatities in what I believe was a 100ft roll maybe larger. I believe we only every ordered the 1/4" in this quantity before the sale. I vaguely remember making a note of a change of the outside texture of the 1/4" hose we were getting supplied with starting with around early 2011. The 5/16" hose never changed in appearance. Agian these are rough dates based off my memory and I'm only posting to help clear up this mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogerck Posted May 7, 2012 Report Share Posted May 7, 2012 Reminder. Mitch and I had three in flight engine power losses before the problem was attributed to the hose. We used Gates non-fuel injection hose purchased from a local auto store. The Gates problem goes beyond hoses supplied be CPS. My suggestion is to test any new fuel hose in gasoline prior to installation until a more definitive answer (if ever) is determined. Roger Kuhn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredG Posted May 7, 2012 Report Share Posted May 7, 2012 Roger K - do you know what was printed/stamped on the outside of the hose? I think it will help if we can identify the suspect hoses in as much detail as possible. Thanks. Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Bozo Posted May 7, 2012 Report Share Posted May 7, 2012 Fred G, Yes mine was made in the USA. Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
round_peg Posted May 8, 2012 Report Share Posted May 8, 2012 Roger K - do you know what was printed/stamped on the outside of the hose? I think it will help if we can identify the suspect hoses in as much detail as possible. Thanks. Fred I will allow Roger K. to verify as he has the leftover hose, but I believe ours was "Made in USA." I am recalling this because we initially suspected that we might have gotten substandard hose from Mexico or China. Since the flaking issue has been detected in both low-pressure and fuel injection hose from Gates, I believe it is fair to surmise that the lining of the hose is the constant. Presumably the difference between the two is in the jacket, the part that does not interact with fuel. Gates may have a large batch or batches of defective hose on the market, and this fuel line is going into cars as well. Cars might be able to handle more debris in their fuel systems than airplane engines (and the consequences less severe), but I'd venture to guess it's only a matter of time before cars start experiencing fuel system clogging traced to deterioration in fuel hoses. Figuring this out should be a top priority for Gates, Rotax and Flight Design. For the sake of our peace of mind, not to mention flying safety, I hope these companies are getting their heads together and not trying to blame it on one or another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogerck Posted May 8, 2012 Report Share Posted May 8, 2012 I do not have any of the original degrading hose availabel to identiy the specific markings. It was Gates automotive, non-fuel injected, made in USA and purchased from a local auto supply store in January, 2012. Roger Kuhn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted May 9, 2012 Report Share Posted May 9, 2012 I took off one of my top fuel hose. It says Gates and made in Mexico. It has been on my plane for 11 months. I cut it length wise for 12" and its clean as a whistle as they say. Here is a pic. I left this pic on the large size so when it opens it opens in extreme magnification. You can see the inner liner compared to the outer liner with the thread reinforcement. When you test hose in your fuel you can not just toss it in a jar because your results will be skewed. The outer cover and the threads were never meant to be in fuel 24/7 and the fuel was not meant to get between the inner liner and the outer layers. If you just throw the hose in a jar open with open ends then the fuel gets wicked all the way up and in between the out and inner layers. This will cause the hose to swell, it may cause the outside hose dye to come off, it could even cause a separation between layers if left long enough. To get a good handle on a hose test, you need to block off one end and then fill the hose with fuel and then block off the other end. You can make up several of these 12"-24" long. Then let them sit for times of your choosing. Let's say one gets cut open in 12 hrs. and maybe the next in 48-72 hours and so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredG Posted May 9, 2012 Report Share Posted May 9, 2012 Roger - good advice for testing new hose. Hose in service for 11 months that looks new when cut open has passed any reasonable test. Which leads to the next question, any idea when FD will tell owners what they have to do to be airworthy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted May 9, 2012 Report Share Posted May 9, 2012 Hi Fred, You are air worthy. That can't be taken away in an email. It was just an email and they wanted to get peoples attention, which they did quite well and to make people aware to be cautious and on the look out for problems. They are still investigating and don't have a lot of good leads so far to nail this down or any solid testing. There is nothing official from FD in the US or Germany. It would need to be in an SD, SB or SA. All anyone needs to do to check your system is pop the carb float bowls and gascolator off and look for a bunch of rubber debris. The suspect hose degrade within hours to a day or so. Many here and around the country have been flying with this hose for a year and a half. CPS has sold tons of these kits to not only CT owners, but many other aircraft owners and so far no other issues have occurred except for this original one on a Tecnam that used this kit. If your carb bowls and gascolator are clean then your good to go. Work with science and common sense and not fear, panic or emotion and a solution can be had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coppercity Posted May 9, 2012 Report Share Posted May 9, 2012 The latest Dear Flight Design CTSW and CT2K owner: We are following up with more information regarding a Service Difficulty Report sent on last Thursday about fuel line shipped with CPS (California Power Systems) kits for compliance with the Rotax 5 year rubber part replacement requirement. After discussions with CPS who worked with their supplier, the mechanics where the problem occurred and carefully reviewing the information we were provided, we believe that the contamination was an isolated incident not specifically related to the type of fuel line sold by CPS. As a precaution we do recommend that anyone that has done a rubber component replacement in compliance with the Rotax requirement, inspect the gascolator screen and the float bowls of the carburetors on their engine prior to their next flight. In addition, CPS will now offer a separate rubber replacement kits using only Rotax specified parts and materials as an option for SLSA aircraft. Flight Design may soon issue more specific guidelines for compliance with the Rotax replacement. Flight Design USA has in stock OEM replacement fuel line as well. I regret any inconvenience that this event and our subsequent letter caused anyone. We were acting with the best intentions to provide immediate safety information on a potentially very serious subject. If you have any further questions regarding this subject, please contact Dave Armando at 860-963-7272 or topservice@flightdesignusa.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
round_peg Posted May 9, 2012 Report Share Posted May 9, 2012 Flight Design may soon issue more specific guidelines for compliance with the Rotax replacement. I'd have been much happier with "will" instead of "may." Several of these "isolated incidents" were reported here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted May 9, 2012 Report Share Posted May 9, 2012 FWIW, I did the rubber replacement in September, 2010. I ordered my kit from CPS but they did not send me any fuel hose. CPS gave me the Gates part number for the hoses and I found that the local auto supply store stocked this and purchased my hose there in both 1/4" and 5/16" size and this was the fuel injector type. There have not been any concerns with this since the installation. I live in Michigan and have temperature and humidity extremes and use Mogas 100% of the time. I have not had any engine stumbling or cutouts but I also have not pulled my carb bowls either to look-see if there's any junk in the bowles. My 100 hour is coming up and the bowles will be pulled. I'll report back if there's any rubber flakes. How about using a silicone rubber fuel hose similar to the factory formed red silicone hoses that are used on later CT's to supply the carbs? This is a high quality hose that has great alcohol fuel resistance and it should not exhibit any of the flaking that some of the Gates hose seems to do. I recall paying over $5 per foot for the Gates fuel injector hose and eventhough the silicone factory hose is very expensive, I think this is due to it being issued from Rotax with attendant factory installed fittings and factory markup. I wouldn't think that the silicone hose would be that much more than the black Gates if purchased here in the U.S. in bulk. Even if this hose may be a "bit" more expensive, it may be worth it to eliminate the "some flakes and some doesn't" situation we're now in and may be worth the peach of mind to use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogerck Posted May 10, 2012 Report Share Posted May 10, 2012 Below is a link for hose I'm considering using. It's marine grade US Coast Guard approved and has more rigorous specs than standard auto hose. It also has a non permeable liner. Seems a liner is the way to go given the complexity of fuel mixtures and alcohol. I’ve bench tested this hose and there is no degradation or fuel coloration. It costs $3.69 per foot and is available from West Marine locally and on-line. BTW, Gates has recently introducted a line called "Barricade" that has a liner and is designed for modern fuels. It is available in a non-fuel injected version. http://www.teleflexmarine.com/products/hose/fuel/series368/ Roger Kuhn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Bozo Posted May 10, 2012 Report Share Posted May 10, 2012 Hmmm, I see that the marine hose is OK to 212 degrees. Does anyone know what the temperature tolerance is for the Gates stuff that we are all using? Since it sits on top of the engine I wonder if 212 is high enough tolerance of it that gets warmer up there? Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogerck Posted May 10, 2012 Report Share Posted May 10, 2012 Larry, Look at this Gates Barricade. Has higher temp spec. Roger Kuhn http://www.gates.com/brochure.cfm?brochure=12468&location_id=5348 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Bozo Posted May 10, 2012 Report Share Posted May 10, 2012 Roger, that looks good. Perhaps we should be using that stuff on all the hoses in the CT, not just the one from the fuel pump to the crossover tube. Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted May 10, 2012 Report Share Posted May 10, 2012 I believe that the liner is either silicone based or a hypalon or chlorinated polyethylene type material. The Gates Barricade would be available in most stores. This is what I was talking about. The price surprises me. I see that there are many lined fuel hoses shown on the web. This is what we should be using. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
round_peg Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 We replaced all of the 1/4" fuel line with Gates Barricade over the weekend, but we are still getting some discoloration in the fuel so it looks like the 5/16" is going to be next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Bozo Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Are you sure it is discoloration? 91 Octane is already discolored a brownish tint. Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Safety Officer Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 A few people had had some discolored fuel from the gascolator after a hose change, but it has gone away after a short period. This came from all over the US so it is not any particular hose and may be caused by other things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
round_peg Posted May 17, 2012 Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 Are you sure it is discoloration? 91 Octane is already discolored a brownish tint. Larry It might be different in other states, but in California 91 octane is dyed pale yellow, sort of like, well, you know. A few people had had some discolored fuel from the gascolator after a hose change, but it has gone away after a short period. This came from all over the US so it is not any particular hose and may be caused by other things. Ours has persisted for several months now, ever since we replaced the fuel lines. After a few days of sitting the fuel drains an iced tea color. Roger K. has bench tested this (see above) and he finds he can reproduce the discoloration with the conventional Gates fuel line, but not with the marine grade or the Gate Barricade. I'm beginning to think that the reason why we are not hearing more about this from other owners is because the dye color for this fuel outside of California is different. Can anyone verify? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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