Jim Meade Posted August 3, 2012 Report Share Posted August 3, 2012 As an aside, didn't Galileo demonstrate tat the egg and bowling ball would fall at about the same speed? He certainly did! And I know which I'd rather stand under. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug G. Posted August 3, 2012 Report Share Posted August 3, 2012 Galileo's experiment only is absolute in a vacuum, which makes flying difficult - and I didn't know he bowled! :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnet Posted August 4, 2012 Report Share Posted August 4, 2012 Galileo's experiment only is absolute in a vacuum, which makes flying difficult - and I didn't know he bowled! :-) If I remember correectly (and I am pretty old) he has the recorded 1st perfect game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Zukauckas Posted August 11, 2012 Report Share Posted August 11, 2012 Ed, You may be right that I am being too conservative (underestimating) on survival likihood on BRS pulls to date. It might be fun to work up 100 senarios or so with the different variables (including piloting skills and possible preemptive pull by the wife), and have a discussion about decision making and the red handle on each hypothetical. For instance: 1. The wing falls off: - PULL - at any elevation, airspeed, regardless of piloting skill! 2. Spin: At 1000 ft. AGL -- Spin recovery efforts first. At 400 ft. AGL ??? At 100 ft. AGL - PULL!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted August 11, 2012 Report Share Posted August 11, 2012 The CTSW manual says for a spin pull when you are at an unrecoverable altitude. Duh! And what is that? How many turns does one take to recover? Many airplanes say you should be able to recover in 3 turns or less, but I don't know what a CT does. How much altitude does one lose per turn? How fast is the spin (planes spin at different rates until the spin is established, and even then some spin at varying rates). Would all pilots recognize a spin? Yes, immediately? Yes, after a few seconds? No - confuse it with a steep spiral and not recognize it's stalled? It would be nice to see some studies or some replicated anecdotal evidence on spins. I understand that for some, it will be pull without much deliberation and I have no problem with this. The CTSW manual gives some situations in which a pull is indicated. Does anyone know how to copy from the .pdf that CT runs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted August 11, 2012 Report Share Posted August 11, 2012 Bill, Discussion and thought on this issue is definitely called for. It's almost criminal for pilots to be flying in planes equipped with BRS and to not have had training in such a valuable lifesaving tool. 1. The wing falls off: - PULL - at any elevation, airspeed, regardless of piloting skill! That was my scenario (in the simulator), and I was shocked I didn't pull sooner. And I had been trained and had thought about scenarios like this ahead of time. Lesson: NEVER be complacent and smug about what you KNOW you will or will not do in an emergency. 2. Spin: At 1000 ft. AGL -- Spin recovery efforts first. At 400 ft. AGL ??? At 100 ft. AGL - PULL!! Have you done spin training? In my experience a fully developed spin would be unrecoverable from 1,000'. Maybe if you had your hand on the handle and pulled at the instant the wing dropped it might work, but that's not how humans are wired. There's virtually always a 2 to 3 second "deer in the headlights" brain freeze. Spinning from the pattern is a virtual death sentence unless the stick is slammed forward and opposite rudder applied at the very first hint of a wing drop. That's why a lot of emphasis is now placed on imminent stalls. In a minute I'll be on my Mac and will post a series of images from Stick and Rudder that may inform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted August 11, 2012 Report Share Posted August 11, 2012 As promised: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted August 11, 2012 Report Share Posted August 11, 2012 Jim, I've copied the following from FD AOI: FD BRS instructions.doc Eddie, you say that you've used a simulator? I'm wondering how much the latest Flight Design simulator program uses actual flight parameters from Flight Design aircraft? If the parameters reflect real world responses from the CT, can this be used to simulate BRS deployment? Do I recall BRS having a simulator at Oshkosh this year? (the human mind is a terrible thing to waste :wacko: ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted August 11, 2012 Report Share Posted August 11, 2012 The BRS simulator was just a seat with a handle. It was supposed to represent a C-182. Better than nothing, but not a flight simulator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted August 12, 2012 Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 Eddie, I keep Stick and Rudder by my easy chair and frequently pull it out to help me get some of the kinks out of my flying technique. I have revisited the section you posted many times. This should be one of the books all pilots should have in their reference library. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
207WF Posted August 12, 2012 Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 What is an unrecoverable altitude depends so much on the pilot's training that in any given aircraft it makes no sense to write down generally what it is. I think that some Europeans spin the CT, but its a shame we can't know what its like! WF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted August 12, 2012 Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 All CT's are a "spins are prohibitive" aircraft. It isn't certified for it. That cost Cessna 162 two crashes and at least one chute pull. These are not GA planes and should not be spun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 These are not GA planes and should not be spun. FD CT and all LSA are General Aviation airplanes. There are many standard certificated planes that are not permitted for spins. In fact, far more standard certificated planes are spin prohibited than are spin permitted. Most of the Cessnas above a C150. The Pipers, with a few exceptions. Twins. Nearly all jets. Any factory spins that went awry are suspect as a reference unless we know about the circumstances. The Skycatcher had some modification after the spin tests. Did the FD have any changes? When was the dorsal fin added and for what reason? I would not put much credence in factory spins unless it was in a current production model. Then I would be very serious about the results. Anyone interested in spinning might go up in a legal plane with an experienced spin trainer CFI and try a few to get the feel for it. One can do some spin entries to incipient spins (a turn or two) and see what it takes to recover. Then go on to a fully developed spin (3 turns) and recover. One thing about the FD is it is very slick and would build up speed pretty quickly in the recovery. The plane is not in any danger in the spin, it's coming out that a person can go too fast. That might be a good reason to pull the chute quickly if there was any doubt of recovery or if below a couple of thousand feet AGL, whatever a person's comfort zone is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 The first CT chute pull was the FD factory because of an unrecoverable spin. That was a number of years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 The first CT chute pull was the FD factory because of an unrecoverable spin. That was a number of years ago. I've always heard it was for an other reason. I think that came from BRS training at a Flight design meeting, but I'm not 100% sure that's where it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 How many FD chute deployments have there been overall, and what were the outcomes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT4ME Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 They are listed in the BRS database... but I think there have been 3 or 4 (do we count this one?)... test pilot at very low altitude, another in Morocco (very low altitude), and one in Sweden (6,000 ft). All with good outcome. tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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