incredibly frustrated

[TheRaven]

Get an instructor that knows how to teach, not just fly.

 

Don't get stuck in a loop of being told that's NOT HOW.

 

Wow, that is a succinct summary of what I've been experiencing! Wherever I decide to resume lessons in the future, I feel like I'm a much more educated consumer now and I certainly will no longer be so passive about the quality of flight instruction that I receive.

[FastEddieB]

The end of the runway is too far away to accurately judge your height.

 

Some may be able to do it with peripheral cues, but looking to the side, ahead of the aircraft is better.

 

This has come up before - I wrote an article for the Cirrus Owner's magazine. Let me see if I can find the post. Otherwise I'll post the article in the morning.

 

I'm surprised instructors are teaching the far end of the runway. The FAA recommends otherwise - I'll find the link for that as well.

[FastEddieB]

From the Airplane Flying Handbook:

 

 

ESTIMATING HEIGHT AND MOVEMENT

During the approach, roundout, and touchdown, vision is of prime importance. To provide a wide scope of vision and to foster good judgment of height and movement, the pilot’s head should assume a natural, straight-ahead position. The pilot’s visual focus should not be fixed on any one side or any one spot ahead of the airplane, but should be changing slowly from a point just over the airplane’s nose to the desired touchdown zone and back again, while maintaining a deliberate awareness of distance from either side of the runway within the pilot’s peripheral field of vision.

 

Accurate estimation of distance is, besides being a matter of practice, dependent upon how clearly objects are seen; it requires that the vision be focused properly in order that the important objects stand out as clearly as possible.

 

Speed blurs objects at close range. For example, most everyone has noted this in an automobile moving at high speed. Nearby objects seem to merge together in a blur, while objects farther away stand out clearly. The driver subconsciously focuses the eyes sufficiently far ahead of the automobile to see objects distinctly.

 

The distance at which the pilot’s vision is focused should be proportionate to the speed at which the airplane is traveling over the ground. Thus, as speed is reduced during the roundout, the distance ahead of the airplane at which it is possible to focus should be brought closer accordingly.

 

If the pilot attempts to focus on a reference that is too close or looks directly down, the reference will become blurred, [Figure 8-5] and the reaction will be either too abrupt or too late. In this case, the pilot’s tendency will be to overcontrol, round out high, and make full-stall, drop-in landings. When the pilot focuses too far ahead, accuracy in judging the closeness of the ground is lost and the consequent reaction will be too slow since there will not appear to be a necessity for action. This will result in the airplane flying into the ground nose first. The change of visual focus from a long distance to a short distance requires a definite time interval and even though the time is brief, the airplane’s speed during this interval is such that the airplane travels an appreciable distance, both forward and downward toward the ground.

 

 

The bold is mine, and it's why the far end of the runway is too far away.

[Jim Meade]

The citation is from 8-4 of the Airplane Flying Handbook. It starts with Estimating Height and Movement and talks about the approach. It says "The pilot’s visual focus should ... be changing slowly from a point just over the airplane’s nose to the desired touchdown zone and back again,...". It is talking about coming down final.

 

Most of us look at the near end of the runway and then move up to about where we expect the wheels to touch (touchdown zone - note, there is a formal touchdown on a runway with precision markings) and back again. As Ed cites, if we switch our focus while on the descent to look way out ahead, we lose our height perception and have a tendency to fly the nose wheel into the runway first (wheel barrow). Bad move. So, down to the roundout (flare) point, we are looking just ahead of the airplane on out to the touchdown zone and back.

 

The next bold heading in the AFH, page 8-5, is ROUNDOUT (FLARE). Here's what the AFH says:

"When

the airplane, in a normal descent, approaches within

what appears to be 10 to 20 feet above the ground, the

roundout or flare should be started, and once started

should be a continuous process until the airplane

touches down on the ground."

 

"Visual cues are important in flaring at the proper altitude

and maintaining the wheels a few inches above

the runway until eventual touchdown. Flare cues are

primarily dependent on the angle at which the pilot’s

central vision intersects the ground (or runway) ahead

and slightly to the side. Proper depth perception is a

factor in a successful flare, but the visual cues used

most are those related to changes in runway or terrain

perspective and to changes in the size of familiar

objects near the landing area such as fences, bushes,

trees, hangars, and even sod or runway texture. The

pilot should direct central vision at a shallow downward

angle of from 10° to 15° toward the runway as

the roundout/flare is initiated. [Figure 8-7]

Maintaining the same viewing angle causes the point

of visual interception with the runway to move

progressively rearward toward the pilot as the airplane

loses altitude. This is an important visual cue in

assessing the rate of altitude loss. Conversely, forward

movement of the visual interception point will indicate

an increase in altitude, and would mean that the pitch

angle was increased too rapidly, resulting in an over

flare. Location of the visual interception point in

conjunction with assessment of flow velocity of nearby

off-runway terrain, as well as the similarity of

appearance of height above the runway ahead of the

airplane (in comparison to the way it looked when the

airplane was taxied prior to takeoff) is also used to

judge when the wheels are just a few inches above"

 

So, the AFH is saying that when you start the flare, you're looking probably 50-60 feet ahead of the airplane because that is how you determine your rate of altitude lose.

 

If we move to page 8-8 and read about the stabilized approach, we get more information on how to use a moving point of focus to help us verify that we have selected the right aiming point and it does not move.

 

"For a constant angle glidepath, the distance between

the horizon and the aiming point will remain constant."

 

"The pilot should not stare at

any one place, but rather scan from one point to

another, such as from the aiming point to the horizon,

to the trees and bushes along the runway, to an area

well short of the runway, and back to the aiming point."

 

So, we know that we are going to look at distant points from time to time to verify our aiming point selection.

 

Now, back to page 8-6, TOUCHDOWN

"the way to make an ideal landing is to try to hold the

airplane’s wheels a few inches off the ground as

long as possible with the elevators. In most cases,

when the wheels are within 2 or 3 feet off the

ground, the airplane will still be settling too fast for

a gentle touchdown; therefore, this descent must be

retarded by further back-elevator pressure. Since

the airplane is already close to its stalling speed and

is settling, this added back-elevator pressure will

only slow up the settling instead of stopping it. At

the same time, it will result in the airplane touching

the ground in the proper landing attitude, and the

main wheels touching down first so that little or no

weight is on the nosewheel."

 

The only way to get the mains to touch before the nose is for the airplane to be nose high. CFI's who taught in Cessna 150's and Piper Warriors had a simple way to define the correct pitch attitude the instant before touchdown - the cowl was even with the horizon or end of the runway.

 

So, to recap:

Final to roundout - pilot's focus from near the front of the plane ahead to about the touchdown zone

Roundout - determine rate of altitude loss by looking ahead so that the focus intercepts the runway at an angle of about 10-15°.

Touchdown - establish a slightly nose high attitude. In some airplanes, this is approximately aligning the cowl with the end of the runway or horizon.

 

Is this how you read the AFH?

[Jim Meade]

Never "push" the stick ahead (unless you are doing wheel landings in a tail wheel airplane. "Relax" the stick.

 

"After the main wheels make initial contact with the

ground, back-elevator pressure should be held to

maintain a positive angle of attack for aerodynamic

braking, and to hold the nosewheel off the ground until

the airplane decelerates. As the airplane’s momentum

decreases, back-elevator pressure may be gradually

relaxed to allow the nosewheel to gently settle onto the

runway."

[Ed Cesnalis]

Jim and Eddie,

 

I agree with all you said but for the purposes of an "Incredibly frustrated" thread I will offer some simplification and clarification.

 

Simple version: There are important visual clues that you can use when you look; at the end of the runway, at the runway in the near distance, at the runway edges and in your peripheral vision as well. A scan allows you to see all of the views and benefit from more visual clues.

 

Clarification:

• Non standard patterns are not helpful prior to solo.
  
• Some here would advocate pushing the stick forward to gain directional control from nose wheel steering. JIm's advice above would serve a frustrated student better.
  

[Dan Kent]

Raven,

I had a similar situation to yours, as I'm 58 and started taking lessons when I was 57. I had 3 instructors and all were different. With the first 2 I had no idea where I was in the process. They were excellent in teaching flying technique, but I had no idea of what was even required to get my sport pilot's license. I finally bought the PTS and basically researched what was needed to get my license.

I felt pretty comfortable flying but landings were my issue. What's funny is that one of my early instructors had signed my logbook off for me to solo at 12.5 hours. There is no way in the world that I ever would have attempted this (I didn't know this until I flipped to the back of the log book and saw it). When my instructor told me I was ready to solo, I told him I wanted to do 5 more good landings in the afternoon, and would do 5 more in the morning and then decide if I wanted to go on my own. I think I had about 45 hours and probably close to 200 landings, when I finally soloed.

 

2 things that I found helpful is that a stable final leg is really important to me, even if I need to extend the downwind leg a little to give me time to get everything set up and stable on final. Also, I figured out that looking out the window really helped with the flare. I would say I'm about 10-15' above the runway when I glance out. It is almost like I can remember this height as I'm slowing the descent rate until touch.

 

Also, I have found that my landings are much better at an airport that I have done a lot of landings at. For my pratical test he picked an airport that I had done a ton of practicing at which really helped.

 

I'm still a very new pilot (135 hours).

[FastEddieB]

Kersher on the topic...

 

(click for larger)

 

 

WheretolookKershner by fasteddieb, on Flickr

 

 

Since this comes up periodically, maybe an admin can cull the pertinent posts and make a "sticky" on "Landing Visual Cues" or something like that?

[FastEddieB]

Here's a link to my article. It's a Word doc I stuck into Dropbox, which gave me this pubic link:

 

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/22997486/Wheretolook.doc

 

Let me know if it works - otherwise I can post it as image files.

[FastEddieB]

Never "push" the stick ahead (unless you are doing wheel landings in a tail wheel airplane. "Relax" the stick.

 

 

You're probably sick of seeing it, but...

 

...here's my recent video, starting right before the first landing:

 

 

Of note:

 

1) Even on this calm day, note the stick movement. While the stick is always trending towards "stick back", some "jockeying" is required. Students will need to find the line between overcontrolling and undercontrolling.

 

2) After touchdown, I bring the stick back the last little bit and the nose comes down when its ready.

 

The second landing is close to a carbon copy (if anyone remembers carbon copies!)

[Jim Meade]

Ed,

You say, "I’ve had some pilots, including at least one flight instructor, advise that the pilot should gradually shift his view to the far end of the runway during the flare. "

 

My understanding of this comment is that just before wheels touch down, when they are inches or not even a foot above the runway, you should be assuming the landing position, which is nose up, and that means in many plans you CAN NOT see see close to the airplane, nor do you need to. Your job right now is to manage the last few inches of settling and to establish the landing attitude. A good reference for the landing attitude is the cowl or nose (depends on your plane) at the end of the runway or the horizon.

 

The CFI's in question are talking about the last part of the flare and you are talking about the initation of the flare.

 

You are both right at different segments or stages of landing.

 

You say, "Flight instructors sometimes note that their student’s night landings are better and more consistent than their daytime landings. The common explanation for this is the student’s vision is being pulled closer to the plane by the landing light – usually (and not coincidentally) right about where they should be looking in the first place!"

 

You need to provide some references for this. It is not my experience in flying or teaching. My experience is that students starting to fly at night have a tendency to "fly into the runway" nose down. I have to remind them to look farther out to see their altitude loss cues. Now, this may have something to do with how far out the landing light illuminates or how fast the plane is flying so maybe in your plane it is different. Most of my instruction experience was in C150s but of course I have lots of night landings in everything up to a Citation. My students used to improve when I required them to land with the landing light off.

 

[TheRaven]

You're probably sick of seeing it, but...

 

...here's my recent video, starting right before the first landing:

 

 

Sweet landings!

[FastEddieB]

 

 

Sweet landings!

 

Thanks.

 

All I can do is offer what works for me, and what in general has worked for my students.

 

At touchdown, I think I'm looking maybe 10° left and maybe 20 or 30 feet down the runway. I know that, for me, if I was looking at the far end of the runway I would not be able to judge height nearly as well. I'm not 100% sure I look to the side in my Sky Arrow - I notice that in the video my head stays pretty much straight down the runway, and we tend to turn our heads when we avert our gaze. However, I have flown many planes where there was zero visibility down the runway in the landing stance, so it's still a good skill to practice.

 

But we will all find our own techniques, and there's a wide variety that may work. I just find that, in general, if a student is having trouble "finding the ground", it's often a case of looking in the wrong place.

[Ed Cesnalis]

When I watch Eddie land in his sky arrow there is a visual sense of alignment, you can see it even in a CT video if the camera is mounted behind you.

 

Look at the landing in this video

( past 6:00 min mark ) and you can see how a CT pilot lacks visual alignment clues that are normally presented by a visible cowling. Here the camera is held high enough to see what a right seat pilot would see.

 

Given the lack of visible cowling I have to look to the side to establish if I am aligned there is really no where else to look. ( I know some use marks on their windshields, which I think is silly because the marks can only really work at a given distance. If you use a mark over time/distance you will be yawing until you arrive at touchdown and alignment )

 

I have a new place that I look, once I am slow enough where I can increase the rate that I pull back without climbing I like to look at my wing. I can see the angle of attack increasing and it gives me the sense of being a raven and sticking my gear feet out in front of me to do a spot landing.

[FastEddieB]

Pushing, relaxing laughing. give us a break.

 

A partial haiku???

[CT4ME]

tim

[C ICEY]

Charlie tango.......

Thanks for the tour!

[FastEddieB]

You say, "Flight instructors sometimes note that their student’s night landings are better and more consistent than their daytime landings. The common explanation for this is the student’s vision is being pulled closer to the plane by the landing light – usually (and not coincidentally) right about where they should be looking in the first place!"

 

You need to provide some references for this.

 

I'll take a look in the books I have to see if that was the source - I really don't remember.

 

I did Google "Landing Easier At Night" and came up with the following thread with that exact name:

 

http://www.studentpilot.com/interact/forum/showthread.php?35363-Landing-easier-at-night

 

Only shows that some pilots opined they did do better landings at night, and then theorized why that might be.

 

I'll post if and when I find my source.

[TheRaven]

 

Given the lack of visible cowling I have to look to the side to establish if I am aligned there is really no where else to look. ( I know some use marks on their windshields, which I think is silly because the marks can only really work at a given distance. If you use a mark over time/distance you will be yawing until you arrive at touchdown and alignment )

 

I have a new place that I look, once I am slow enough where I can increase the rate that I pull back without climbing I like to look at my wing. I can see the angle of attack increasing and it gives me the sense of being a raven and sticking my gear feet out in front of me to do a spot landing.

 

Looks like beautiful country out there, CharlieTango. Seeing your video reminded me again of how bizarre the sight picture in a Flight Design can be, and it made me wonder why more flight schools don't make use of video, either pre-flight or during flight with a post-flight review. My impression is that many schools are afraid of video for liability reasons. Any instructors care to weigh in on the use of video? I know some would argue that it might be a distraction for a student pilot ("look at me!!!"), but it seems like for most students, it would be more like push a button, forget about it, then review later. As someone who has used video in sports training, I find visual feedback a very valuable tool.

 

The flight school I was at used marks in the windshield. I can't say they helped me, and in fact at times seemed like a distraction.

 

And it probably goes without saying that I enjoyed your analogy to the flight of a raven.

[coppercity]

We have been integrating videos of various maneuvers including takeoffs and landings into our ground training courses. We embed these into the power point presentations we use as part of our preflight briefings and ground training lessons. They make for great discussions, can be paused and reviewed step by step, based on our local area and aircraft. Works great!

[Jim Meade]

Eric,

Are you using "canned" videos or are you taking videos of the student and showing it back to the student with commentary?

 

Just out of curiosity, have you asked your insurance company and lawyer if they have any opinion on taking videos during flight training?

[coppercity]

Eric,

Are you using "canned" videos or are you taking videos of the student and showing it back to the student with commentary?

 

Just out of curiosity, have you asked your insurance company and lawyer if they have any opinion on taking videos during flight training?

 

Hi Jim,

 

I use videos I have taken while my wife and I perform the maneuvers using a go pro and another small HDD camera.

 

I have not checked with insurance about video during lessons, but have not really considered it just due to the time required to download and review it after the lesson. Most problems can be identified with a good de-brief and a review of the material including a video or graphic of the maneuver done correctly. I have used some of the Ipad apps that record your flight including ground track, altitude, etc. These are useful at times such as for ground reference and traffic pattern lessons.

[Al Downs]

Raven I too had difficulty landing. I am 67 and I just got my Sport Pilot last August. I couldn't tell when I was going to touch down. I was with a new instructor while my regular one was not available. We did a couple of laps and he told me that when I am in the flair and the runway (looking toward the far end) seems to jump up in your windscreen, you are about to touch and it was time to pull back smoothly.

 

Nobody else had explained my problem that way but that fixed it for me.

 

My other problem was becoming confident enough to bring the speed down slow enough. I always want to stay 60-62 kinda fearing anything slower even though I knew better.

 

I now come over the fence 56-58 look down the runway, watch for the surface to jump into the windscreen and generally have nice smooth pretty landings.

 

I know many think you should not use different instructors but once I got serious about finishing up, I used as many as 4 different instructors in a month. Each had a different way of explaing things and I was able to solve my problems. I passed all the tests and now have a certificate but still fly with instructors a couple of times a month.

 

Good luck and don't get discourged. You are almost there.

[Jim Meade]

Also, in crosswind, and slipping, flairing gets harder because you have to level the wing and unfoot the rudder just before touchdown. Still, practice makes perfect.

The Airplane Flying Handbook has a good and extensive discussion of crosswind approach and landings pp 8-13 to 8-15. Here's a small segment:

 

"CROSSWIND TOUCHDOWN

If the crab method of drift correction has been used

throughout the final approach and roundout, the crab

must be removed the instant before touchdown by

applying rudder to align the airplane’s longitudinal

axis with its direction of movement. This requires

timely and accurate action. Failure to accomplish this

will result in severe side loads being imposed on the

landing gear.

If the wing-low method is used, the crosswind correction

(aileron into the wind and opposite rudder)

should be maintained throughout the roundout, and

the touchdown made on the upwind main wheel."

[FastEddieB]

Also, in crosswind, and slipping, flairing gets harder because you have to level the wing and unfoot the rudder just before touchdown.

 

Not sure I get what you're saying. Let me echo what Jim just posted...

 

In a crossing landing, ideally you roll on the upwind wheel with bank controlling drift and rudder controlling runway alignment. On touchdown, nothing really needs to be changed - normally as you slow control inputs increase, not decrease.

 

I've found zero reason in a GA aircraft to try to land level, or with the rudder "unfooted".

 

Large jets with nacelle mounted engines may need to land wings level to avoid dragging a nacelle, but that's a whole 'nother story.