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Here you go Larry. Nice to have you with us. I'm sure your going to get all the answers and help you need here. Good luck on a CT purchase. It's a great plane and you almost never find an unhappy CT owner.

 

 

Hi,

 

I am considering the purchase of an LSA and most likely of a flight design CT. I am not sure of the appropriate forum or topic to post a new post with general newbie ownership questions. Is there a forum on ownership issues?

 

There are several questions I have and would appreciate any advice or guidance from the group. Perhaps I should divide this post up into separate topics ... but here goes.

 

1. Useful Load. My wife and I are currently on diets and I believe the typical useful load of the CTLS/i may be sufficient for us. However, I am considering taking on a partner in this aircraft and he and I are both around 220 pounds each. We also would like a well equipped plane with auto-pilot and avionics to practice ifr approaches etc.

 

- Is there enough useful load for us to take on sufficient fuel if we are flying together?

 

- Is it likely that useful loads for the LSA's will be increased in the near future?

 

 

2. Typical Insurance Costs:

 

- What are typical insurance costs for a new CTLS? I have Commercial rating, IFR, and CFI with close to 2000 hours... most in a Cirrus

 

 

3. Typical Annual inspection costs if done by an A&P/IA ... (ie, I do not have time to work on it myself)?

 

 

4. Data costs to maintain XM and Garmin data?

 

Thanks

 

Larry

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Hi Larry,

 

I'm sure lots of people are will chime in here to help you out.

 

This is an issue with all LSA's. Some are sensitive to heavy weights and some handle them quite well. Many LSA out there end up flying heavy because of the 1320 limit. It's nice to have a plane that can handle it and much more without any issues. The CT SW or LS can handle your weight as described and so long as you put weight where it was designed in the CT you won't ever get it out of W&B.

There doesn't look like there will be any increase in weight limits from the FAA any time soon.

Insurance rates vary depending on your purchase price. If you bought a used 2006 CTSW for around $75K-$80K then the rate may be around $1200-$1500. If you buy a newer CTLS rates may go up and be between $1500-$2100 depending on how new the LS was. It will also depend on your hours in type. AIG and Chartis seem to be at the top of the list for now.

Annual Condition inspections can also vary a lot. If you take it to a big shop that charges $90 hr with lots of overhead then it could be around $2300, but if you take it to one of the smaller shops at $50-$70 hr. it may be between $800-$1200.

As far as the XM and Garmin data go it could run $50-$100 a month if you start adding lots of data monthly fees. Most don't have any of that and we all fly all over the country without any issues.

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Larry, I have recently looked for insurance for purchase of a new CTLSi, I have found it to be in the $2,500 to $3,000 range but thats $170k hull value and a pilot with much less experience. Also liability was capped at $1mm by all insurers and only one company would offer smooth. This may be different than what you are used to in a Cirrus. On subscriptions, just note that you can now get ADS-B piped into the Dynons so if you're satisfied with its capabilities, you will not need XM weather. There is another current thread on this topic. Good luck.

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N764AC was a brand new CTLS that I took delivery of in April of 2012. MSRP loaded up was $161,000. Purchase price was $152,400 (you wont get any discount now, too many pending orders). The aircraft has dual Dynon Skyview, Tundra Gear, Dynon Autopilot and Transponder. Hi output Lithium Ion Battery and Charger, LED Landing light. Empty weight was 816 pounds. Useful load was 504 pounds. They say the Fuel Injected CTLSi weighs in about 20 pounds heavier so 816 becomes 836 (although perhaps a person with a new CTLSi can comment). Useful load should be high 400's. CTLS does have a float version available so we all know it will fly just fine well above 1320 but of course in the USA without the floats, you are supposed to stay at 1320 or less. My insurance as a relative low hour pilot for full coverage on a hull value of $140k (I gave myself a little deductible) was 1900.00 per year. First annual not due until end of April so I'm not sure yet what the cost will be! As of today, I just sold the plane and am now awaiting my new CTLSi "Jubilee" Edition to deliver somewhere over the next 6 to 10 months.

 

N531CT was a 2006 CTSW that I owned. A CTSW fully loaded has an empty weight around 720's and a whopping 600 pound useful load. If you need a weight hauler, a used CTSW is cheap (relatively speaking) next to a new CTLS. You can upgrade avionics to Dynon Skyview if you want and keep the useful load and have updated electronics. At 600 pounds useful load the CTSW is the best LSA out there for heavy people who want to haul stuff and fly far distances! My insurance on a used CTSW with low hours and a hull value of 75,000 was about $1500. My annual on my CTSW cost about $700 to 800 (when no remedial repairs were needed and included oil change, spark plugs etc.)

 

Below are pics of each plane

post-124-0-23134900-1363023115_thumb.jpg

post-124-0-87550500-1363023172_thumb.jpg

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Larry, I have recently looked for insurance for purchase of a new CTLSi, I have found it to be in the $2,500 to $3,000 range but thats $170k hull value and a pilot with much less experience. Also liability was capped at $1mm by all insurers and only one company would offer smooth. This may be different than what you are used to in a Cirrus. On subscriptions, just note that you can now get ADS-B piped into the Dynons so if you're satisfied with its capabilities, you will not need XM weather. There is another current thread on this topic. Good luck.

 

Thanks

 

I am somewhat surprised. I currently pay around $3,000 for a $270K hull value SR22. I thought the LSA insurance would be considerably less.

 

Larry

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N764AC was a brand new CTLS that I took delivery of in April of 2012. MSRP loaded up was $161,000. Purchase price was $152,400 (you wont get any discount now, too many pending orders). The aircraft has dual Dynon Skyview, Tundra Gear, Dynon Autopilot and Transponder. Hi output Lithium Ion Battery and Charger, LED Landing light. Empty weight was 816 pounds. Useful load was 504 pounds. They say the Fuel Injected CTLSi weighs in about 20 pounds heavier so 816 becomes 836 (although perhaps a person with a new CTLSi can comment). Useful load should be high 400's. CTLS does have a float version available so we all know it will fly just fine well above 1320 but of course in the USA without the floats, you are supposed to stay at 1320 or less. My insurance as a relative low hour pilot for full coverage on a hull value of $140k (I gave myself a little deductible) was 1900.00 per year. First annual not due until end of April so I'm not sure yet what the cost will be! As of today, I just sold the plane and am now awaiting my new CTLSi "Jubilee" Edition to deliver somewhere over the next 6 to 10 months.

 

N531CT was a 2006 CTSW that I owned. A CTSW fully loaded has an empty weight around 720's and a whopping 600 pound useful load. If you need a weight hauler, a used CTSW is cheap (relatively speaking) next to a new CTLS. You can upgrade avionics to Dynon Skyview if you want and keep the useful load and have updated electronics. At 600 pounds useful load the CTSW is the best LSA out there for heavy people who want to haul stuff and fly far distances! My insurance on a used CTSW with low hours and a hull value of 75,000 was about $1500. My annual on my CTSW cost about $700 to 800 (when no remedial repairs were needed and included oil change, spark plugs etc.)

 

Below are pics of each plane

 

 

Hmmm.

 

That's too bad. I was hoping for a CTLSi (nicely tricked out, avionics, autopilot), but sounds like if I do that I will not be able to carry any fuel. I better diet.

 

Larry

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N764AC was a brand new CTLS that I took delivery of in April of 2012. MSRP loaded up was $161,000. Purchase price was $152,400 (you wont get any discount now, too many pending orders). The aircraft has dual Dynon Skyview, Tundra Gear, Dynon Autopilot and Transponder. Hi output Lithium Ion Battery and Charger, LED Landing light. Empty weight was 816 pounds. Useful load was 504 pounds. They say the Fuel Injected CTLSi weighs in about 20 pounds heavier so 816 becomes 836 (although perhaps a person with a new CTLSi can comment). Useful load should be high 400's. CTLS does have a float version available so we all know it will fly just fine well above 1320 but of course in the USA without the floats, you are supposed to stay at 1320 or less. My insurance as a relative low hour pilot for full coverage on a hull value of $140k (I gave myself a little deductible) was 1900.00 per year. First annual not due until end of April so I'm not sure yet what the cost will be! As of today, I just sold the plane and am now awaiting my new CTLSi "Jubilee" Edition to deliver somewhere over the next 6 to 10 months.

 

N531CT was a 2006 CTSW that I owned. A CTSW fully loaded has an empty weight around 720's and a whopping 600 pound useful load. If you need a weight hauler, a used CTSW is cheap (relatively speaking) next to a new CTLS. You can upgrade avionics to Dynon Skyview if you want and keep the useful load and have updated electronics. At 600 pounds useful load the CTSW is the best LSA out there for heavy people who want to haul stuff and fly far distances! My insurance on a used CTSW with low hours and a hull value of 75,000 was about $1500. My annual on my CTSW cost about $700 to 800 (when no remedial repairs were needed and included oil change, spark plugs etc.)

 

Below are pics of each plane

 

In order to eliminate variation in labor cost, is there a "book value" number of hours for a standard annual inspection (not counting repairs)?

 

Larry

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Is this the Larry Reinstein who frequented COPA?

 

If so, welcome!

 

If not, welcome anyway!

 

My first two annuals were done at Lockwood in Sebring for about $750, IIRC.

 

Now they're typically well less than $100 - I'm E-LSA and took the course to do them myself.

 

My insurance is about $950 for $50k hull.

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gbigs - Here is the weight and balance for a new 1 year old CTLS with Dual Skyview, Tundra, Dynon A/P, Garmin 796, etc. The Rotax with fuel injection weighs more than a 912ULS (the only difference between our 2 birds). I'm not sure who told you the weight of your plane empty would be 770? Note the useful load on this bird is 506. With fuel injected engine it will be in the high 400's. The one problem with the CTLS is it keeps on getting heavier and heavier.

Weight and Balance N764AC.pdf

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Hmmm.

 

That's too bad. I was hoping for a CTLSi (nicely tricked out, avionics, autopilot), but sounds like if I do that I will not be able to carry any fuel. I better diet.

 

Larry

 

Larry, You can put Skyview in a CTSW along with all its goodies, a Garmin 796 etc. There is a fleet issued LOA (letter of approval) allowing for the electronics upgrades. When I had a CTSW I had upgraded the GPS to a Garmin 696 (796 wasn't out yet), it had autopilot and dual Dynon (non skyview). An advanced panel CTSW is a capable aircraft. Here is a pic of my panel after I upgraded the GPS. WIth a 600 lb useful load two at 220 still leaves plenty for gas and stuff... The CT has lost 100 pounds of useful load from the 2006 SW to the current version LS. That's a lot of useful load gone! I sure wish the FAA would raise 1320 up to 1400 for LSA without floats! A clean used low hour SW goes for 75K, throw in 15k of avionics and you'll have your cheap, capable LSA station wagon for 2!

 

I should tell you, I'm a big fan of the CTLS and the CTLSi (I own the former and have the latter on order now). Part of the purpose of the forum is to help people. When you do the math, 2 x 220 = 440. That leaves less than 60 for fuel (10 gallons) and stuff. If you really are going to haul 440 pounds of people the SW can do it with lots to spare!

post-124-0-62215400-1363052837_thumb.jpg

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The earlier CTLS's were a little lighter, my 2009 loaded for its day comes in at 790lbs for a 530lb useful load. My 2007 CTSW came in at 740lbs.

 

How about a CTLS lite? I think they are down to the 730-740 range maybe even a little lighter, you dont get all of the fancy avionics but if it meets your requirements its a good way to go for the performance and range.

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Now called the "CTLS Club"... http://flightdesignu...raft/ctls-club/

 

Says its "40 pounds lighter" down to 730 pounds from 770 of the "base CTLS". Not sure how to get a CTLS down to 770 but, 40 pounds is 40 pounds even if you start with the reality of a higher number it certainly would help. The avionics are not too bad, its a single 7" Dynon Skyview. with a Garmin Area 500 series for GPS. If you took 40 pounds off my actual weight of 816 that would get you down to the 776 range. I have Tundra, a person could go with standard gear to save another 10. That would give 554 as a useful load or in Larry's case now 114 pounds available for fuel and stuff. Thats 19 gallons of fuel, or something less plus a little luggage, starting to get a whole lot better!

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Just to add data to the trend line, my 2003 CT2k, with (then optional) BRS and inflight variable comes in at 320kg (704lb)

 

 

it appears that each "refinement" takes a bit out with it.

 

I can't imagine any appreciable increase in the amount of joy, I assure you. :)

Mike

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I believe the requirement is that minimum crew weight be 120 lbs. I take that to mean between the two seats you need 120, not in each seat. Any other reading would imply you can fly by yourself and put nothing in passenger seat but if you fly with a child/light adult you need to top them up to 120 which wouldn't seem to make any aerodynamic sense to me.

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Here's a W&B spreadsheet I've posted before. This is for my 2006 CTSW and must be modified for use on other CT's. One can change input in any of the yellow shaded boxes to see the effect that changes to fuel, pilot, passenger and cargo has on the W&B. To change the parameters, go to tool and remove cell protection. This shows why light pilots need ballast.

N9922Z W&B worksheet_130312.xls

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The 120 lb. limit means at least 120 lbs in the cockpit, how ever it gets there. That would either be a 120 lb. pilot or maybe two 60 lb. Elves <_< . Your choice.

It just means a pilot must weight at least a 120 lbs, but if you had a 100 lb. lady (since none of us gents weigh 100 lbs.) that you would need to put the extra weight in with something else. You could use something like a 25 lb. lead shot bag to make up the difference. It's just to make the minimum W&B correct and make sure you had proper control of the aircraft. My helicopter had to have at least 150 lbs. That was for W&B, but also you needed the weight for it to auto rotate properly.

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Here's a W&B spreadsheet I've posted before. This is for my 2006 CTSW and must be modified for use on other CT's. One can change input in any of the yellow shaded boxes to see the effect that changes to fuel, pilot, passenger and cargo has on the W&B. To change the parameters, go to tool and remove cell protection. This shows why light pilots need ballast.

N9922Z W&B worksheet_130312.xls

 

I had not seen this before! Nice tool... I intend to "SWIPE" this... (Steal With Integrity Pride and Enthusiasm) Thanks for sharing!

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But it could just as easily be placed in the baggage compartment on that same side.

 

You can't put the ballast in the luggage because it has a longer moment arm.

 

Not all CTs have the same CG envelope, mine is bigger than others I have seen. I remember Art P complaining that he needed ballast in the luggage when he flew solo with full fuel. The same loading would not require ballast in my CT because the forward part of my envelope is bigger.

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Correct. The 120lb min is for the cockpit. Note the critical issue for W/B is the Center of Gravity which is not lateral, but longitudinal. You can mess up lateral balance if you have all the fuel and pilot on one side, but the real issue is weight along the ARM behind the reference Datum which is usually the firewall.

 

So when my 90 lbs wife flies alone she lacks enough weight to meet the minimum the POH calls out for this balance. the convenient place to put the 'ballast' to get the cockpit up to 125 is to place it in the right seat. But it could just as easily be placed in the baggage compartment on that same side.

 

Putting the ballast in the bagage with a light pilot would be a gig no no. You don't have to put the weight on the other side either. Your wife could wear a divers belt with 30 lbs of weight.

The CT has an empty CG range. As long as the airplane is loaded within the limits and under gross weight you don't have to do a weight and balance. The problem with having less than a 120 lb crew and the max 110 lbs of bagage as you burn fuel you might go out of aft CG. The book sets the limits we have to follow, but you might find that if you did a weight and balance computation you might still be OK on CG. The limit is set to make sure tou are OK on CG.

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PUtting 25 lbs in the luggage on EITHER side will work just dandy. Fuel is never totally balanced either. You guys are too much. My wife is NOT going to wear a divers belt to fly a plane. Laughing. She puts a duffle bag full of dead body parts in the right seat and puts the seat belt around it. Satisfied?

 

Putting the 30lbs of ballast in the luggage would have a similar effect to reducing your wife from 90lbs to 60lbs. It would make the aft of CG range anticipated by the 120lb limitation even farther aft of the limit. This could make the pitch control more challenging than it was designed to be.

 

You could probably compensate with full fuel because the fuel tanks are forward but as Tom points out you would have to do a W&B calc to see.

 

Perhaps a little lead in the foot locker?

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Getting back to the topic of my post, it is sounding more and more like the CTLSi that I was hoping to purchase will NOT have an adequate useful load unless we somehow lose a combined 50lbs between us. That is disappointing but I guess I could look for a used CT with greater useful load.

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Hi Larry,

I have a 2007 SW and love it as does almost everyone at KTFP in south Texas. I studied and flew several other LSA's before making this purchase and I cannot even begin to tell you how satisfied I am with it. I have not really had any problems with w/b. I adjust with fuel if needed.

Welcome to the best forum in the land.

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