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As far as the 1500 lbs. suggested earlier - flying at that weight automatically takes your plane out of the Light Sport category and it loses its airworthiness certificate. If it is enforced you have a paperweight since its airworthiness cannot be restored and it cannot even be taken to E-LSA because it is no longer airworthy. You may get away with it, but someday, someone won't and it may be a $100k mistake.

 

Doug, I don't agree with that. I understand where you are coming from, but I have a different take. If you have a maximum takeoff weight of 1320 and exceed that weight, the weight limit of 1320 is still in place. Flying the airplane over the maximum weight does not change the limitation. If you were to receive approval to exceed the weight limit then it can no longer be a LSA.

On an other forum I visit a fellow bought a Taylorcraft to use for tailwheel and sport pilot training. Someone pointed out a Beech Roby prop for sale. He mentioned that his airplane had one at some point in time. I told him he needed to check to make sure it was still LSA complient. It was not, because of the once installed controlable pitch propeller.

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hi Doug,

 

I'm with Tom on the over weight flight. If you take off with let's say 1450 lbs. You are in violation of the LSA weight limit for that flight only. Once you land and correct the weight to 1320 or under it's good to go. I have already run this through thew FAA. An equipment change like Tom talks about is another animal.

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No, doesn't change the limits - it legally puts that airplane outside the LSA category and it does not go back if you take the weight out. It has been flown in an unairworthy condition, the plane would need to be recertified (unlikely), and you may also lose your ticket for the intentional violation of the airworthiness of the plane. ---As I understand it from Carol Carpenter.

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Hi Doug,

 

 

Here call this number to get an answer from the FAA: 405-954-6400.

This subject was brought up to the FAA before. They were quite clear it was for that flight only. You have changed nothing on the plane there for it can't be illegal for any other flights thereafter if the weight is then under the 1320. I spoke to the FAA directly on this and they talked to legal. A higher weight doesn't remove it from LSA. If that were the case that would mean all float LSA's would be out of class too if over 1320, theoretically speaking because it had another 100 lbs added. I know the weight for floats is 1420, but you see it is over the standard weight without affecting any thing on the plane. It would still have taken a standard LSA put floats on it which add another 100 lbs. over 1320. You did nothing to hurt that plane.

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If that is the case I must have misunderstood. The definition of LSA allows the 1420# so that doesn't enter into the question at all. Icon is trying to get it raised for their A5, but it stands at 1320/1420. What did the FAA say happens if you are caught at 1500 lb.? This has nothing to do with the airplane's capabilities, it has to do with the definition of light sport.

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The link above speaks to duration of the airworthiness certificate.

 

(3) A special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category is effective as long as—

(i) The aircraft meets the definition of a light-sport aircraft;

(ii) The aircraft conforms to its original configuration, except for those alterations performed in accordance with an applicable consensus standard and authorized by the aircraft's manufacturer or a person acceptable to the FAA;

(iii) The aircraft has no unsafe condition and is not likely to develop an unsafe condition; and

(iv) The aircraft is registered in the United State

 

All 4 conditions remain true after an over gross flight. This link does not support your contention.

 

The certificate can be surrendered, suspended or revoked but it doesn't get violated, it is not a regulation.

 

A SLSA with an overgross flight remains an SLSA.

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Hi Guys,

 

My point was that just because it was over weight for one flight doesn't make it illegal for the next. Adding the extra 100 lbs from 1320 to 1420 on a single flight didn't damage the plane because if it did then you wouldn't be allowed to add the extra 100 lbs of floats in the first place and once the weight is removed then its a done deal. It is only a violation you as the pilot can be violated for, it has nothing to do with the plane. The weight like an illegal part if removed keeps it airworthy. You do not need any special inspection to return it to service. Just remove the weight or the part. It only stays un-airworthy if you leave the part or leave it in its over weight state again.

I made this call a few years back to the FAA because people thought this same thing on another forum so I did my research. If you haven't done that and called the FAA then you need to follow through on this side of the debate and get a ruling from the FAA. Trying to listen to someone else or interpret some rule isn't enough. They're open Monday. Here call this number to get an answer from the FAA: 405-954-6400. You'll be surprise.

 

p.s.

The FAA never did call me back on the no LOA needed prop issueif it's in the POH. Looks like I'll be calling them too.

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Roger and Charlie are correct. Overweight is a violation of the Op-lims, just like buzzing a city or flying at night without lights. It would be the operator, noit the plane, that is in trouble. I don't know how public use works because it never applies to GA http://testimony.ost.dot.gov/final/secpa.htm but for government use, the LSA restrictions are not relevant. Public use planes, like airforce1 or military jets, do not even have N numbers.

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  • 2 months later...

I just had a test flight in a CTLSi and would like to re-open this topic if that is ok. Since, as I mentioned in the original post, my potential buying partner and I are each 205 lbs (lost some weight I am glad to say), would we be better off with a CTSW as one of the posts suggests?

 

We do want to equip the plane with the fancy glass avionics and AP so would the weight savings be nullified?

 

Is the comfort in the SW same as the LS? What about flight characteristics?

 

 

Perhaps we should just lose another 10 pounds each:-)?

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I just had a test flight in a CTLSi and would like to re-open this topic if that is ok. Since, as I mentioned in the original post, my potential buying partner and I are each 205 lbs (lost some weight I am glad to say), would we be better off with a CTSW as one of the posts suggests?

 

We do want to equip the plane with the fancy glass avionics and AP so would the weight savings be nullified?

 

Is the comfort in the SW same as the LS? What about flight characteristics?

 

 

Perhaps we should just lose another 10 pounds each:-)?

 

Having flown the various models, the comfort of the newer CTLS is better then the earlier 09 LS's and the SW. The seat rails have changed a little that allows the seat to be adjusted further back and still retain the recline without bottoming out on the gear attach points, the seats can also be moved further forward to accommodate shorter pilots. The seats are now carbon fiber structure vs the older fiberglass ones. The width is the same between the LS and SW, but the LS adds the hat rack behind the seats with the added windows. The LS is a little easier to handle then the SW, but with some transition training you would have no trouble with either one. The LS comes with the composite main gear that is more forgiving over the SW. The SW is lighter even when we'll equipped will come in under 780# where the LS will come in at 780 to 800. The CTLSi will be a bit heavier yet.

 

All the CT's are fantastic airplanes from an analog SW to the latest and greatest so I think you will be happy with any choice you make especially once your in the air!

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Gbigs,

 

Don't always believe the Mfg spec weight from the documentation, but what the final weight really is on your doorstep. As many have found out over the years the spec weight has almost always been lighter than the actual one you get. No Mfg wants to spec out a heavier plane. They will spec them out as the lower end model and it will be heavier than the one with all the bells and whistles. Robust gear or not many have trashed the composite gear on the LS models as easy as the SW's. Dropping them in will damage any of them as FD found out. Yes the LS gear is better than the SW, but there are a ton of SW's flying and the gear isn't damaged because of the pilots. The pilots determine how robust the gear really is not the Mfg. Any pilot can damage any gear. The CTLSi has had its growing pains and issues you just don't know about them. Wait and see the final W&B sheet.

 

Wait until you have yours and fly it for 100 hrs then you'll be better versed in all the fine detail that isn't published, talked about or shown in any demo.

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gbigs, your new CTLSi will be over 100 pounds heavier that the lightest CTSW. My CTSW was 730 empty and my CTLS is 780 empty. Some of the early CTSW's were sub 700 empty. Your new airplane will weigh somewhere in the 820 to 840 range empty, and maybe a little more if you have tundra gear. If weight is the issue then the CTLSi with all its improvements is not going to help.

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...CTLSi got a cowl change to accomodate the fuel rails which is an airframe change...

 

 

The argument is circular. Your saying get the injected model for the airframe improvements but the airframe mods are to accommodate the fuel injection.

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I agree with Tom,

 

The CTLSi is 100 lbs heavier than the lighter SW's. In our little planes weight is everything. Even in two identical CT's of any model. Fly two side by side, one solo and the other with an extra 100 lbs and the lighter one will be faster providing prop pitch is equal and the WOT rpms are the same. Add 200 or more lbs and the difference becomes greater. The prop pitch is absolutely a major player here too. So where the CTLSi is a very nice plane to say the least (FD did a nice job) and has many improvements some of those improvements come at a cost, both monetarily and flight wise. I would bet a months salary that the SW will take off in a shorter distance and most likely out climb an CTLSi. Weight is everything and the FI engine can't make that difference up.

 

After 7 years and 1300+ hrs of flying everyone's CT's including my own and hundreds of hours doing test and research, side by side many times, that isn't speculation, but hard fact. The 7 years doesn't even include the 5 years prior flying and working on other Rotax 912 aircraft.

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Does anyone know if FD is even shipping any non fuel injected into the US? I'm sure you can order one but it seems all the spec dealer ones are "i"'s. If I didn't weigh 155 lbs I would have thought long and hard about ordering an "i".

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Stanton, MN has received two new CTLSi When I was there a week ago they had put one hour on the first. (Each needs a 2 hour checkout once it is reassembled on this side of the pond.) They have three more on order. Four of the five are sold, the other will be a demo/training unit until it is sold. They are on the way albeit slowly.

There are a few differences, but nothing of much consequence to the airframe (cowling, notched wheelpants), the Skyview allows screen re-arrangement, there is no longer a beacon or light at the back of the tail, the LED lights on the wing tips provide bright position, strobe and rear facing white lights. I understand there is a warning light once only the header tank has fuel although I did not notice this. There is, of course, the tank selector.

Other than that I did not notice any differences. My understanding is that they weigh more, but I did not check the W&B sheet, or ask.

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I have no doubt that a new LSi is gonna look, smell and feel nicer than my lowly SW, but my SW has never sputtered on take off. If it did, take off would be aborted. Or, it might be a damned cold day with too rapid throttle advance in which case I have seen several planes sputter.

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Check out this youtube video put out by John Hurst from Lockwood Aviation. They put a Rotax 912ULS and a 912IS engine on an Aircam and flew 15 hours round trip from Florida to Oshkosh and back. http://youtu.be/TTQ4psahui4.You can also see the video by going to Lockwood Aviation's new website. I see a lot of negative comments from people who have not flown the CTLSI. Don't knock it until you have tried it. I know Eddie (Charlie Tango)likes to fly inverted (legally out of canyons)in his SW and maybe the SW is right for you. Some people do not like the location of the main wing spar on the SW (right next to your forehead). Do not cut yourself short. Fly them all and decide for yourself. Flight Design keeps making these airplanes better and better each batch. After flying the SI cross country with many take off and landings with big heavy customers, for me the SI is hands down by far the best airplane Flight Design has built to date. Yes I sell FD airplanes from time to time, but mostly I fly and demonstrate a carbureted CTLS. It's not just the fuel injection, but the combination of the package and refinements of the whole. I love these airplanes because I love to fly and it gives me a break from my main job of running a very busy maintenance shop.

Roger, I do not want to wager a months wages, but I would love to see GBIGS's wife in her new CTLSI and you in an SW and see who out climbs each other to 10,000 feet. I would pay just to see that. I would put my money on her. Can we arrange that?

 

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Has anyone flown the Evektor Harmony ? How does it compare to the CTLS in terms of comfort and performance. I ask because it seems to be the only S-LSA that can be purchased certified for IFR flying... unless I am wrong? Although IFR is not my main concern, it would be nice to be able to legally fly through a layer if it is necessary.

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One final thing, Tom Peghiny has been tracking our plane and its delivery. We asked what people are ordering on the new plane. He said no one is ordering the CTLSi with a 912 carbed engine - all are 912i.

I cant wait to fly/ride in one. I haven't seen anything but the Si engine offered in the Si aircraft. Isn't the major distinction of the of the CTLSi the Si engine?

Tim

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