vaflyer Posted April 12, 2013 Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 I'm a airplane (and helicopter) CFI&I. I operate a small sod field in WV and also fly out of eastern Virginia. I'm interested in instructing LSA and I'm looking at the various options for LSA aircraft. I found this forum that thought that maybe you guys could help me out. One thing I'm concerning about is the actual basic weight of a CTSW. What is actually typical? How much can you realistically carry? What is a realistic training burn rate on fuel? How is the CTSW for new (never flown) students? I read a few things about control stiffness, landing, etc. How serious is this? How is the part/maintenance supply? Any weak points for training aircraft? Appreciate any advice, thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted April 12, 2013 Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 I operate my CTSW on sod often. The bigger tires help but the small ones worked for me. The basic weight on most CTSWs should be 750 or less. Heavier on the CTLSs. You can fly with full fueld and 360 pouds or more. 400 if you hold back on the fuel. No one is going to admit to flying overweight, but don't be surprised if you hear of people flying at 1400 pounds. I'm not trying to start or get into an innuendo contest. Weakness on the CTSW is the landing gear. Don't drop it on. You will hear a lot of advice to "fly it on". I don't agree with it but many in the LSA community are convinced they need to do it, so you are going to get a lot of very strongly held opinions, may of which are not in agreement with the AFH or even the POH/AOI. Enough of that. There are plenty of parts. I don't think I'd worry about teaching ab initio in a CTSW. The plane flies well I think the controls on many other planes are better balanced, but there is nothing snakey about the CTSW. The plane is slick, so speed management is a challenge for newer pilots. It has good cabin space and visibility. But, the short nose gives some people difficulty in keeping it straight. It takes a little getting used to. The brakes and steering are like a Piper Tri-Pacer, so you ahve to neutralize the rudder before the nose gear touches down or you'll head for the weeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coppercity Posted April 12, 2013 Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 I'm a airplane (and helicopter) CFI&I. I operate a small sod field in WV and also fly out of eastern Virginia. I'm interested in instructing LSA and I'm looking at the various options for LSA aircraft. I found this forum that thought that maybe you guys could help me out. One thing I'm concerning about is the actual basic weight of a CTSW. What is actually typical? How much can you realistically carry? What is a realistic training burn rate on fuel? How is the CTSW for new (never flown) students? I read a few things about control stiffness, landing, etc. How serious is this? How is the part/maintenance supply? Any weak points for training aircraft? Appreciate any advice, thanks! Hi Vaflyer I have owned and been teaching in our CT's for five years now both the CTSW and the CTLS. We started with a CTSW which was great, but two years later upgraded to an LS. No problems with the SW as far as training new students, transitioning pilots coming from Cessna's and Pipers was actually more difficult sometimes then new students. We went to the LS for the better landing gear which is a composite gear vs a aluminum gear, plus liked the longer tail moment for yaw stability and the more open feeling cabin with the added rear side windows. We have over a thousand hours on our LS and had put over 600hrs on the SW all training and rental flights. No major maint issues during any of those hours, just the standard preventive maint and 100hr/annual inspections. During training sessions I average 2.7 gals per hour of auto gas, dont add any oil between 50hr changes, so operating costs are very low. My LS has a useful load of about 530lbs, the SW a little more at around 600lbs so plenty for two people and gas. FDUSA stocks a good supply of parts and are quick on getting them out if needed. The Rotax is bullet proof so long as you take care of it. I have been very happy with my Ct's for training and have a hard time going back into a Cesna or Piper, its just not economical, they feel tiny inside now and just not as fun for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaflyer Posted April 12, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 Thanks to Jim and Coppercity! Any comments on LSA as business model? I been an instructor for over 30 years and grew on Cessna's, Pipers, J3 cubs, etc. I've been a part owner of a Cirrus for over six years but I don't use it for instuction because the insurance is just too high. The potential clients I'm speaking with just don't want to fly in a 30 year old Cessna and the LSA community just seems like the way forward for fun, recreational flying. Comments? Thoughts? On Course Aviation LLC www.oncourseaviationllc.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S3flyer Posted April 12, 2013 Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 Paul Shuch runs a single-LSA flight school and is a wealth of information. He uses a different LSA but his experience could provide insights. He frequents sportpilottalk.com and his web site is www.avsport.org. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul m Posted April 12, 2013 Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 VAFlyer, these guys don't look too far from you. Looks like a thriving Sport Pilot business. I find the Cirrus too expensive and difficult to stay current in, the 172 (G1000) too narrow, and the pre '96 planes too dated. So new LSA fit me perfectly. Now whether you can make a living at it... I'll leave to Eric and others. http://chesapeakesportpilot.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul m Posted April 12, 2013 Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 http://avsport.org/docs/report2012.pdf Good call Dave. Also note that Paul posts his annual report online. Should be very helpful to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Posted April 29, 2013 Report Share Posted April 29, 2013 I just started up my single-airplane (2006 CTSW) flight school in October and we are slowly but steadily growing. I have four new student starts, a Private Pilot flying as a Light Sport pilot who just finished CTSW transition training, several other private pilots and students who have expressed interest and a fair number of walk-ins, despite having an established LSA school on the other side of Houston to compete with. It helps that we are currently the only CT flying outfit in this part of the world (and, for now, the only LSA outfit at our airport), and people really like the aircraft. My experience so far has been in line with Eric's. After years of hearing the Light Sport market was good, I wasn't sure at first but as word has spread we are here, it does seem to be true that there is a good market, though we're still not "in the black" yet with insurance being my highest cost. Having a small spike in maintenance costs due to the annual, a grounding problem, and going through tires a bit quicker as people learn to land it straight but costs are still way behind the 1976 Cheetah we used to own, though we never did instruct in that airplane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted April 29, 2013 Report Share Posted April 29, 2013 Andy, how fast are you going through tires? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mocfly Posted April 29, 2013 Report Share Posted April 29, 2013 Andy, Here is a quick tip to get your students to learn to land straight, and help with tire wear. Have them make a low approach and put the centerline of the runway between the pedals. When they can fly a couple feet above the runway at this attitude it's time to let them land. Works every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted April 29, 2013 Report Share Posted April 29, 2013 Lockwood Aviation in Sebring, FL also does training in LSAs, Tecnams and CTs. I trained there and had a great experience, they might have some guidance for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted April 29, 2013 Report Share Posted April 29, 2013 Low approach over the entire runway does nothing to teach landing technique in the long run anyway. You can fly low and slow over the runway to demonstrate drift control. Maintain the center-line Drift using ailerons to runway edge and maintain that line opposite rudder as needed. Drift using ailerons to opposite runway edge and maintain that line. Drift back to center-line. You can learn to cross control for crosswinds without contacting the runway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Posted April 30, 2013 Report Share Posted April 30, 2013 Guys, It's not drift control I'm talking about; it's learning the sight picture of what is really "straight" in this airplane for the actual touchdown. My certificated pilots who are transitioning have trouble with that one, and I don't land it with the perfect yaw every time, either. I teach speed control from day 1, though my emphasis is on the "out the window" and I keep them out of the cockpit almost entirely for the first few lessons, at least. When I said "going through tires", I needed probably to explain that we're going through them faster than we used to when I was the only pilot. It's still not bad, but it's easy to rub a flat spot when you land crooked or apply the brake too hard. All these techniques are valuable, and I'm sure I'll use every one of them at some time or the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted April 30, 2013 Report Share Posted April 30, 2013 Andy, Sorry, I was responding to a quote in the thread not you. Sight picture is an interesting subject RE a CT because you can't see the cowling. Some provide centerline marks on the wind screen but they are only correct at the 'correct' distance. Now I hear of parallel marks or even lines on the panel, guess that one might work better. Lacking a view of the cowling the sight picture is different. On approach you can compare the runway threshold angles but once you are close there are few references for alignment. I think I learned it over time by observing which wheel landed first and from that learning to get them to land together. A left window / right window comparison can give you the visual you need to get strait as well as a close vs distant comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted April 30, 2013 Report Share Posted April 30, 2013 It's not drift control I'm talking about; it's learning the sight picture of what is really "straight" in this airplane for the actual touchdown. My certificated pilots who are transitioning have trouble with that one, and I don't land it with the perfect yaw every time, either. We positioned the airplane on the taxiway, lined up perfectly with the yellow line and then put crosshairs on the windscreen and a white lines on the top of the dash, both sides. Everyone loves it. I can get you pictures if you like. The crosshairs were originally grease pencil. After the necessity was proven we went to .020"-.030" black printed circuit layout tape on the windscreen and .050" white tape on the dashboard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coppercity Posted April 30, 2013 Report Share Posted April 30, 2013 Andy, A technique I use is to have the student line the centerline up under their right leg and parallel to the ridgeline that runs down the instrument panel. The ridgeline I speak of is the line created by the "hump" on the top of the center instrument panel, it runs forward from above the radio stack and is actually parallel to the longitudinal axis. Flying down the runway low certainly helps with learning this sight picture along with the drift control with crosswind. I use "monster" treads on my CTLS and get 800-900hrs out of a set, they wear like iron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mocfly Posted April 30, 2013 Report Share Posted April 30, 2013 I find this exercise useless. Best to go after speed control first. Low approach over the entire runway does nothing to teach landing technique in the long run anyway. Gbigs, My response to Andy was to help his students get the right "sight picture" of what straight is, while flying in close proximity to the runway. If you have an especially long runway, this exercise can do many things for pilots. Some of which Charlie Tango identified. There are many more. I am not quite sure why you even commented. Based on, I guess, your "expertise" in instruction? Please ignore the question mark as I am not looking to continue a dialogue or have this this thread hijacked by you. Speed control is very important in our slippery little planes and I am not trying to minimize speed control. However, I firmly believe that keeping things going straight down the line is sometimes more important. Being able to do it saved my *ss a couple weeks ago when I got caught in an ice storm in WV. on my way back from NJ. Ice loaded up the plane, froze the pitot and increased the stall speed to 80kts(I had to use the GPS) within 15 min. Pretty unnerving. Picture a landing at 90kts starting on 1 wheel and keeping it going straight down the runway until the speed bleeds off and the other wheel comes down. You can't get there without doing some work down low. I have attached a video of how bad the sleet/ice/snow was coming down during and after my approach and landing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mocfly Posted April 30, 2013 Report Share Posted April 30, 2013 Here is the video trim.f2MBEV.MOV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Posted April 30, 2013 Report Share Posted April 30, 2013 For Eric, Yeah, you and I had talked about that long ago and is essentially what I've been teaching, though on base to final I tell my students to simply line up the centerline with the middle of their body. That seems to work from either seat. A couple of CFI's I work with and I have been discussing seeing if yaw strings might work (I'm thinking one wedged under the cowling directly in front of each occupant) and it's something I thought about long ago but didn't try for various reasons. (I'm not even sure it'll work with the CT's short nose and propwash effects.) But I'm going to play with it this weekend to see if it might be useful. What are "monster" threads? I've been using Michelin Aviators 600 x 6 on the mains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul m Posted April 30, 2013 Report Share Posted April 30, 2013 We positioned the airplane on the taxiway, lined up perfectly with the yellow line and then put crosshairs on the windscreen and a white lines on the top of the dash, both sides. Everyone loves it. I can get you pictures if you like. The crosshairs were originally grease pencil. After the necessity was proven we went to .020"-.030" black printed circuit layout tape on the windscreen and .050" white tape on the dashboard. Jim, I would be interested in seeing a picture if not too much trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted April 30, 2013 Report Share Posted April 30, 2013 I also switched to Desser Monster retreads, and they seem to wear well. http://www.desser.com/monster.shtml Usual caveat: for SLSA they really should either be specified by the manufacturer or have an LOA permitting their use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted April 30, 2013 Report Share Posted April 30, 2013 Regarding alignment for landing, as a former 182 guy I had problems with this. It's not only lack of visible cowling, it's also that due to the shape of the cockpit your feet are closer to the center line than your body. My solution was to measure (on the bulkhead) the distance from the center line to the center of the seat. Then I placed a 10 inch piece of yellow tape the same distance from the center, on top of the mushroom. Now it's as easy as pointing (not aiming) a shotgun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT4ME Posted May 1, 2013 Report Share Posted May 1, 2013 I used the corners of a Post-it... just a couple of dots aligned with a taxi line... Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.