Scared Myself Today

[FlyingMonkey]

Good question Paul. I should have retracted them sooner probably, but I was still shaken. Notice in the video the airplane is climbing quite well at 30 flaps at 50-55 knots. I don't love that margin with the nose that high, but in this case it worked out. I dropped the nose a little, built speed up to 60 knots then went to 15 and then 0 at 70 knots.

[WmInce]

. . . "My question for the group is how quickly should one reach for the flap switch and go from 30 to 15 on a go around?" . . .

 

I would not worry about reconfiguring the airplane until:

 

1) Rate of descent arrested and stablished in a stabilized climb

2) Well away from the ground

 

During the go-around maneuver, aircraft control is paramount.

In addition to that, if a switch (like flaps or trim) is inadvertently repositioned to an undesirable position (like extending flaps further or trimming opposite to what is intended) it may aggravate an already serious situation.

 

Go-arounds should be practiced regularly, to the point where they are almost "second nature." One day, that proficiency in performing them may save your butt.

 

Good job on yours Andy.

You definitely made the right call.

[Jim]

Don't worry about the flaps. First priority is to get the hell out of Dodge.

[FlyingMonkey]

This has been a confidence buster, but I'm committed to working through it. I'm planning to go up again tomorrow and practice landings, with particular attention to stick position after touchdown, holding the nosewheel off, and keeping the pedals neutral during nosewheel touchdown. If anybody sees anything else in the video that needs work, please let me know.

 

Eddie, I'd love to have you ride along with me sometime soon and let me know if you see any deficiencies.

[WmInce]

Don't worry about the flaps. First priority is to get the hell out of Dodge.

 

Well said Jim and right on!

[FlyingMonkey]

Don't worry about the flaps. First priority is to get the hell out of Dodge.

 

That was my plan.

 

I was actually worried I was going to overspeed the flaps, I was surprised when I finally looked at the speed on climb and saw 50-55kt...over speed was not a problem. I was at high power, but drag increases by the square of speed, so the plane just does not want to go fast with high flap settings.

[FlyingMonkey]

 

 

The answer is dont use 30 at all! If you land with 15 you can do a go around without any change to your flaps. Just push the throttle all the way forward and takeoff again. Its a shame some are confusing the new pilots with the big flap low speed paradigm. It's a poor technique.

 

Did you watch the video? I took off at 30 flaps with no change in either flaps or trim. The only change was to retract flaps when a stable climb was achieved at a safe speed and altitude, same as you would with 15 flaps. If you were at 15 flaps in the situation in that video, I doubt you would have gotten off the ground without buying the airport a new sign.

 

I wonder why Flight Design has flap settings higher than 15 degrees, and why the techniques for using them are in the POH? Does FD purposely advocate "poor technique" in an effort to kill its customers?

 

 

[Jim]

Nothing wrong with flaps 30 or your use of them.

[bseager]

Good job deciding to go around, with the responsiveness of the CT it is usually the right choice if the landing isn't working out especially if you get into the oscillations you experienced. I think you handled the 30 degree flaps fine in the approach and touch down so I don't think it was a factor. But as Eddie points out don't forget to keep the aileron inputs in as you roll out , especially with 30 degrees of flap because you will be more reactive to gusts. And don't worry about this, we all scared ourselves after getting our tickets. My Instructor(s) told me there would be 'learning moments' as a low time pilot and they were right.

[josjonkers]

30 degree flaps is just fine and should be mastered

The answer is dont use 30 at all! If you land with 15 you can do a go around without any change to your flaps. Just push the throttle all the way forward and takeoff again. Its a shame some are confusing the new pilots with the big flap low speed paradigm. It's a poor technique.

Don't listen to this "noise".

30 degrees flaps is just fine and should be practiced and mastered.

Nothing wrong with a go around when the situation warrants it.

[WmInce]

Andy,

 

I commend you for sharing your experience with us and posting the video. I assure you, all of us have had similar experiences, at one time or another.

 

Regardless of the experience level, we are all continuing to learn.

 

I was once told, by an old pilot . . . "when you think you know it all . . . maybe it's time to hangup the headset."

[mocfly]

Andy,

Lets look at the issue. I downloaded the video and looked at it with .25 speed and 1080 so I could really see your instrumentation, stick movements and most important you feet movement.

 

I am not going to debate the long vs short final, we will only look at the facts as they relate to the video evidence.

 

 

Lets look at the following time segments

 

Video Position Airspeed Vertical speed Alt Attitude wing low left/ right. Stick position Rpm Position/centerline

1:13. 58. -500. 1100 Level Neutral 2100. Off right ~ 10 ft.

Input: none

1:14. 58. -500. 1100 Slight left wing low. Neutral. 2100. Off right ~10ft.

 

As soon as that wing goes down you make an immediate right aileron input which goes back to neutral and their is a slight left rudder input. (Watch the video at .25 speed in high def)

1:15. 58. -500. 1100 Slight left wing low. Neutral. 2100. Off right ~10ft

 

Not much changes in this configuration until 1:17 when the nose swings to the left about 20degrees. As this happens you make a right aileron and left rudder input.

1:17. 60. -525. 1050 Level. Neutral. 2100. Off right ~5ft

 

This attitude stays the same until 1:21. The wings go down right(wind correction) and looks like you make a left rudder input. Stick movement goes back to neutral.

1:21. 60. -550. 1000. Slight right wing low Neutral 2100. ~ 0

 

At 1:22 the nose again begins to swing left you make a right aileron input,(bring the wing down) at 1:24 you make a slight right rudder input. You make no aileron inputs but the right wing starts to rise

1:25. 60. -500. 950. Slight right wing low. Neutral. 2100. ~0

 

You hold this attitude which looks perfect until 1:27/28 when you add left rudder and pitch back. If you use the GPS mount against the centerline you will see the left rudder input move the nose to the left

1:28. 55. -500. 950. Slight right wing low. Pitch back. 2050. ~0

 

Between 1:28 and 1:29 you add right rudder and right aileron. As soon as you see the nose move to the left you make right rudder input then almost another left rudder input, then right, them left. At 1:30 the right wing begins to rise. As the wing rise you make a left aileron input and pitch back., then the aileron goes back to neutral.

1:30. 55. -300. 950. Right wing moving up. Neutral. 2000. +3 right

 

At 1:31 you are wings level by 1:32 the right wing begins to rise again and the nose begins to move to the left. At 1:33 you start to pitch back and add right rudder, then right aileron. Looks like 42 knots right wing low at 1:35 you make contact with the right main. You make a forward pitch change

1:33. 45~. -200. 950. Level. Pitch back. 1900. 0

 

Between 1:35 and 1:36 you make a small skip. At 1:37 both mains are on the runway and you begin to lower the nose. At 1:38 you head moves about 2 inches to the right and the nose is planted.

1:38. 440. -100. 925. Level. Neutral. 1600. Off left 5-6 ft

 

At 1:39 the nose swings to the right. You make an immediate left rudder input at 1:40 you make a right rudder input and the right wing immediately begins to rise. As soon as it rises you bring in left rudder bringing the right wing up even more. However the nose does swing to the left. There are no aileron inputs. At 1:41 you head moves about 3 inches to the left and you are almost aligned with the centerline however you are right wing high you make a back left aileron deflection. The nose swings left the right wing drops. It's is 1:42

 

At 1:42-43 you are wings level you push the stick forward planting the nosewheel you are headed left of centerline and headed left. You make aileron inputs to the right, there are no right rudder inputs. Your head moves from left to right(I know what that feels like"move right b**ch) at the 1:43-44 mark you add full power and now put in right rudder. The plane is level accelerating and then moving to the right while you have the rudder and aileron input in.

 

At 1:45 you pitch back and off she goes. You keep right rudder and aileron until about 1:49 at which time you level off and climb out on the runway centerline.....

 

I will leave it up to the flight instructors in this group with CT experience to give you official guidance.

 

I can tell you this exact same thing happened to me twice. The first time when delivering my aircraft to an annual at Shelby County. Everything was the same except for my deviation was to the right. Nothing but a tree line that looked like it was located 50 ft off the centerline. It made me sweat pretty hard. I went around like you did for another go and once the nose dropped it was hard deflection into the wind and brake.

 

The next time it happened I went around as soon as I skipped on the one wheel.

 

Your decision to go around was textbook.

 

You made good wind correction during final but didn't hold that angle until the transition. My observation. Your good, just gotta hold the wind correction and then when it's on the mains, put hard corrections in for wind and get it slowed down...

 

I will never forget how I felt after staring at a tree line of spruce....

 

Get back out.... Put 15 in, extend your downwind and make things happen slowly....you can play a little and feel how she flies with different inputs.

 

You are always welcome to come up to KCHA and visit for a while.

 

Cheers....

 

 

 

 

 

[Jim Meade]

Your approach was fine and it was not too short. Your approach and setup was stable and there is nothing that would have been gained by flying it longer.

 

When doing a go around, the first action is smooth application of full power (not jamming it in if you have an old round engine or you'll flood it), then (essentially simultaneously) setting the pitch attitude to stop the descent and stabilize the airplane, then transition to a climb. Next you reduce flaps to 15° because that produces the best lift and gets rid of drag and because it establishes you for Vx to clear obstacles. Once stabilized in the climb out and clear of the obstacle you can retract flaps to 0° and continue at Vy. For a discussion of flaps use see AFH chapters 8 and 11. For a go around see chapters 8 and 12.

 

You say the runway was 31 but the wind was from 190 to 020? Which way was it varying? In the west quadrant or the east quadrant?

 

I don't see anything wrong with 30° flaps with an 8 knot crosswind. 55 kias is plenty fast unless needed for the wind. Flaps don't have any detrimental effect while in the air - it is on the ground that full flaps may hinder control. In fact, with flaperons one might make the case that some flaps helps the CT roll authority.

 

 

[Roger Lee]

Hi Andy,

 

Lots of help here from everyone and plenty to think about and only you can really pick apart your landing. You were the only one there. One thing about a CT. If you have too much rudder trim in to the right and you get too slow just before touch you will drift left. I must have had a hundred calls on this. If the wind is pushing from the right the effect is even more pronounced. It also looked to me that once on the ground you might have relaxed a little too much and needed more right peddle and or aileron, but I can't really tell from the video how hard you were being hit by the wind. I too am a firm believer in more wind less flaps especially while your new in the CT. maybe a sooner application of controls on the ground may have kept you from getting too far left, but you would know better than us.

 

Keep at it, it gets easier. Everyone has had their time in this particular barrel so don't let it bother you.

[coppercity]

Looks like it was a simple matter of neutralizing your crosswind aileron input when you should have continued to add more after touchdown. The nosewheel being cocked does not cause a huge swerve from my experience. I have lots of crosswind practice with students at our airport and the most common mistake I see is students failing to continue to increase crosswind inputs after touchdown. Your approached thru touchdown looked good but you can see the right wing being lifted shortly after you neutralized the ailerons, this set everything in motion. The CT seems to me to have much less aileron authority with higher flap settings so that stick should continue to increase into the wind as you slow down. Follow the manufacture recommendation to only use flap settings more then 15 deg in light winds with very little crosswind if any. Get right back in the saddle and keep flying. You did a good job with your go around.

[CT4ME]

I had a similar episode, at <70 hours. Very similar, except the runway lights went between the nose wheel and the left main! And I got it back on the runway. 'Never really figured it out... No video and the memory isnt very reliable. Sure surprised my passenger... Not sure if it was a gust, but at the time I was still prone to land cocked a bit to the left.

I'd have to agree on the short final... A bit more prep MAY have helped.

What do you guys think about 30 degrees and the lift-off... More drag or lift?

Tim

[FastEddieB]

 

I was once told, by an old pilot . . . "when you think you know it all . . . maybe it's time to hangup the headset."

 

Or, as my friend Trip told me:

 

"There are three secrets to consistent, safe landings...

 

...too bad no one knows what they are!"

[FastEddieB]

Mocfly...

 

EXCELLENT nearly frame-by-frame analysis. I was going to go back and review the video again concentrating on the feet, but you saved me the trouble.

 

This, again, is not meant to criticize, only analyze.

 

We spend far more time driving than flying. We have very powerful and longstanding reflexes to want to steer ourselves out of trouble.

 

And, when things go poorly in a hurry, we quickly revert to "lizard-brain" reflexes.

 

I daresay every instructor has seen this, and at all levels of training*.

 

Where it applies here is something totally unexpected happened suddenly - a swerve to the left. Here, in front of our keyboards, everyone thinks, "Well, duh, just push right rudder!"

 

But I've watched students, and experienced pilots, do anything but - you can watch the stick or the yoke move away from the direction of the swerve. In general, you can also see the pilot start to lean away from the swerve. Everything but the rudder that would actually do something!

 

As a tailwheel instructor, I've had to jump on hundreds of swerving landings by jumping on the rudder, applying brake against the swerve (not available in the CT), lifting the tail to get the rudder back in the game and neutralizing the aileron or getting it back into the crosswind. All this because the student's reflex when things went to hell was to attempt to "steer" the plane back to the runway.

 

Anyway, I suspect that's what happened here in the split seconds after the swerve began, as reinforced by mocfly's excellent analysis.

 

One thing that might have helped: if you had gradually applied aileron into the wind and held the nose up as long as possible, when the nose came down you could have had the stick firmly planted to the right rear, at or close to the stops. If you were in the habit of then holding it there, your feet would have been the only option when the plane swerved, and since the plane would have been going a bit slower when the nose came down the swerve would have been much less pronounced. Not to rehash the debate in another thread, but remember that even a slightly slower speed at the nose touching down can have a large effect on the energy to deal with.

 

I'll PM about a good time to get together.

 

 

*on a go around in an SR22, I watched an owner allow the nose of the plane to continue to yaw to the left - 310 HP can have much more pronounced left turning tendencies than our little 100 HP jobbies. He was "steering" and leaning away from the roll, and I'm convinced had I not been there to lower the nose and jump on the rudder, he would have been a smoking hole to the left of RWY 2 at Copperhill. There have been several botched go arounds in Cirrus' that fit that exact pattern - torque roll into the ground with wreckage and fatalities to the left of the runway.

[FlyingMonkey]

Thanks to all for the analysis, and especially to Chris for the blow by blow.

 

Eddie, I was pushing some right rudder, but I had just come out of a left swerve that had lifted the right wing and main wheel, and the weight had not fully settled yet. I was afraid that any more rudder would transfer the weight back the other way and tip the plane on its right wing. I used to do a lot of performance car driving, and the classic loss of control in a turn is to swerve, over correct the other way, and break loose on the second or third oscillation and the weight transfers more violently with each cycle.

 

I'm not saying that would have happened here, just that in my limited experience I didn't know exactly what was about to happen.

[WmInce]

Or, as my friend Trip told me:

 

"There are three secrets to consistent, safe landings...

 

...too bad no one knows what they are!"

 

Good one!

[Jim Meade]

Keep in mind that as your speed slows so does the response of the control surfaces. You'll have to use greater and greater inputs to achieve the same effect. With a plane as light as the CT, the placement of the pilot matters, as well, so inputs to the right may need to be a little bigger than those to the left. Not that you're thinking of that when you're doing them.

 

 

[Jim Meade]

One thing about a CT. If you have too much rudder trim in to the right and you get too slow just before touch you will drift left. I must have had a hundred calls on this. If the wind is pushing from the right the effect is even more pronounced.

I'm lost on this. Please give some more detail, including how the rudder trim system is set up, to help me through it. It doesn't compute to me on the surface.

[FlyingMonkey]

I'm lost on this. Please give some more detail, including how the rudder trim system is set up, to help me through it. It doesn't compute to me on the surface.

 

I'd like more info on this as well...how should we set up the rudder trim to minimize this effect? If my ball is centered in straight and level flight in calm conditions, shouldn't that mean my rudder trim is neutral? My rudder trim is adjusted out somewhat to one side, but this is what I had to do to get a centered ball in the conditions described above.

[Tom Baker]

I know I'm late to the party, but here are a couple thoughts. I have had this happen when flying with students, and it can happen with 15° flaps, but 30° flap makes it a bigger problem. You said you touched down a little flat, and I would agree with that from the video. If you are flat then you are a little fast at touch down too. If you were just a little fast and relaxed the controls after touchdown like you did the airplane will transfer more weight to the nose wheel, and sometimes one main will come off the ground. This is where the swerving action starts. By holding some back pressure on the stick after touchdown you will help to stop this from happening. This problem is greater in the SW than the LS because in the LS they changed the gear geometry.

[Ed Cesnalis]

That is a great description Tom and I'm sure your right. Lately I have been testing the transition from rudder to nose-wheel steering and find I have to fight the nose-wheel but If I keep the stick aft that the rudder steers more agreeably. With full aft stick by the time the wheel does settle it is a mild event.

 

Andy had directional control until the nosewheel took control, I doubt that it was skidding i think it was tracking the way it was pointed.