johnr Posted September 24, 2013 Report Share Posted September 24, 2013 I have been going over my check lists to see where they may be improved. I was fortunate to get a fairly comprehensive list supplied with the CT. I am sure that most of us would assume that the key needs to be removed to fully shut off the fuel, I am not so sure that our passengers would know how to shut off the fuel without some vital loss of time. I always familerise anyone flying with me what would be required in the most unlikly event of my own incapacitation, (It is a requirement to give your passenger an emergency briefing if flying with an RAA liscense in Australia.) I have my wife remove the pin from the BRS handle as part of my preflight checklist. It means she knows how to remove & replace the safty pin, It also gives her confidence in having completed the first part of the emergency procedure & all that is left is to turn off the key, pull the handle & shut off the fuel then make a radio call. After which she can gently float to the ground !. I have never thought until now that it is essential to explain that the key must be removed. I doubt if even experienced pilots that have not had the good fortune to experience Flight Design products would be aware of the neccessity to remove the key. I am of course presuming that the fuel can not be completly shut off untill the key is removed. If it can be fully shut off with the key in postion then we have another serious issue. I would be interested to hear comments from the instructors in the group. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted September 24, 2013 Report Share Posted September 24, 2013 The newer CTLS fuel handle does not interfere with the key. For my airplane (CTSW ELSA) I intend to modify the fuel handle so it can be close with the key in for the very reasons you mention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug G. Posted September 25, 2013 Report Share Posted September 25, 2013 Is it a bug or a feature? When the CTLS was introduced most reviewers were impressed by this manner of insuring that the fuel was on before startup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted September 25, 2013 Report Share Posted September 25, 2013 In most engines, the fuel is on before startup. I can see some case being made that the fuel can not be shut off in flight. Most aircraft are shut off by moving the mixture lever to full lean and starving fuel. One school of thought is that if a person moves a prop accidentally and the P lead is hot the engine won't fire because it has no fuel. Some recommend a switch off-on on at idle to verify the P lead is connected before fuel starvation. I don't know of any reciprocating aircraft engines that shut down routinely by turning the fuel lever to off. The Rotax shuts down on the switch. If you unport a tank, FD says you should be able to restart within 60 seconds of providing fuel. That is a lot of seconds sometimes. Maybe Rotax/FD doesn't want an engine shut down by pulling the fuel lever. Of course, the unported wing has to feed fuel from the wing while a fuel shutoff has to feed fuel from the valve. Maybe no difference..... I'm not sure what safety or mechanical feature the fuel switch guarding the ignition was intended to provide. Is there a problem if one cranks the engine and the fuel switch is set to off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted September 25, 2013 Report Share Posted September 25, 2013 If you don't like it, it should be easy to fix, simply remove the horizontal red handle on the lever, shorten as needed so it doesn't block the key switch, and reinstall. Probably only legal to do on an ELSA though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted September 25, 2013 Report Share Posted September 25, 2013 If you don't like it, it should be easy to fix, simply remove the horizontal red handle on the lever, shorten as needed so it doesn't block the key switch, and reinstall. Probably only legal to do on an ELSA though. Buy and install the knobs from a newer LS. Need an LOA for that? Have to see if the part crosses to the SW switch, I suppose. You and I may think it is a simple change but the airworthiness boys at FAA may or may not have their own ideas about modifying a handle that was obviously intended to guard the switch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted September 25, 2013 Report Share Posted September 25, 2013 Buy and install the knobs from a newer LS. Need an LOA for that? Have to see if the part crosses to the SW switch, I suppose. You and I may think it is a simple change but the airworthiness boys at FAA may or may not have their own ideas about modifying a handle that was obviously intended to guard the switch. Exactly why I put in the caveat about ELSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted September 25, 2013 Report Share Posted September 25, 2013 Some flight schools have discovered that students will close the valve with the key in. You just have to push hard. I can't see what the intended prevention is, I guess you could start a warm CT and take off before the fuel in the float bowls is exhausted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted September 25, 2013 Report Share Posted September 25, 2013 When is this fuel valve full open? I fly with it to the upper stop but on some videos you see it at the 1/2 position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted September 25, 2013 Report Share Posted September 25, 2013 In most engines, the fuel is on before startup. I can see some case being made that the fuel can not be shut off in flight. Most aircraft are shut off by moving the mixture lever to full lean and starving fuel. One school of thought is that if a person moves a prop accidentally and the P lead is hot the engine won't fire because it has no fuel. Some recommend a switch off-on on at idle to verify the P lead is connected before fuel starvation. I don't know of any reciprocating aircraft engines that shut down routinely by turning the fuel lever to off. The Rotax shuts down on the switch. If you unport a tank, FD says you should be able to restart within 60 seconds of providing fuel. That is a lot of seconds sometimes. Maybe Rotax/FD doesn't want an engine shut down by pulling the fuel lever. Of course, the unported wing has to feed fuel from the wing while a fuel shutoff has to feed fuel from the valve. Maybe no difference..... I'm not sure what safety or mechanical feature the fuel switch guarding the ignition was intended to provide. Is there a problem if one cranks the engine and the fuel switch is set to off? I have seen more than one airplane quit while taxiing out, or on take off roll due to a shut off fuel valve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted September 25, 2013 Report Share Posted September 25, 2013 When is this fuel valve full open? I fly with it to the upper stop but on some videos you see it at the 1/2 position. I think that is a function of the placard not being lined up with the handle on the valve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted September 25, 2013 Report Share Posted September 25, 2013 I have seen more than one airplane quit while taxiing out, or on take off roll due to a shut off fuel valve. Point conceded. I meant to get to a position to fly, but should have been more precise. I wonder how long the CT will run with the valve closed? I'll have to try it sometime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted September 25, 2013 Report Share Posted September 25, 2013 Some flight schools have discovered that students will close the valve with the key in. You just have to push hard. I can't see what the intended prevention is, I guess you could start a warm CT and take off before the fuel in the float bowls is exhausted? Out of curiosity, I have thought about trying to push the valve down with the engine running and seeing if the engine would starve and stop, but have not gotten around to it. It definitely seems they are trying to prevent normal operation with fuel flow off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted September 25, 2013 Report Share Posted September 25, 2013 I can see some case being made that the fuel can not be shut off in flight. The obvious case where the ability to off the fuel in flight is valuable is an engine fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted September 25, 2013 Report Share Posted September 25, 2013 Out of curiosity, I have thought about trying to push the valve down with the engine running and seeing if the engine would starve and stop, but have not gotten around to it. It's on my annual inspection checklist. About the only time my fuel gets turned off. Word up: the engine will run an amazingly long time near idle on the fuel in the lines and float bowls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SportFlyer1 Posted March 10, 2016 Report Share Posted March 10, 2016 Indeed so, I started up and taxied an Evektor Sportstar to the runup area and only then noticed the fuel pressure gauge was reading zero! I thought that was strange, since it never happened before. All the other gauges looked fine and the engine was running good, but I sat there and thought about it until a light bulb went on and I looked down at the fuel valve. Its was pointing to 'off', I almost fainted at the thought of taking off that way. After checking the checklist I saw that I missed that step. It always seemed to me a great idea that FD made the fuel valve handle cover the ignition key. Now I just whistle a happy tune when I insert the ignition key and open the fuel valve :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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