making landings easier

[Roger Lee]

Hi guys,

 

I think after approximately 4 years now most have determined that keep just a little rpm in until touch makes your landings more consistent. We would like to have 100% great landings,,,,,,, buttttt since we seem to be a little below that at times we strive to get the best percentage of good landings as possible so we can re-use the plane again. I know some like no power on landings and that's ok, but a little power really helps smooth that vertical descent right at ground level.

[CT4ME]

"Roger" that...

 

Plus, using less flaps helps a lot. My preference, and a lot of seasoned CT Fliers, is 15 degrees as my normal landing, and zero when it's windy... It's good to practice 30 or 40, and gosh you can put it down in a short space, but for consistently good landings when you've got the space, you can't beat a little power and a little flaps.

Tim

[coppercity]

Agree,

 

I start students and transition pilots with 0 flap and a touch of power. Then we work into 15 flap, and finally 30 and 40. The CT is easier to manage at a fixed power setting be that idle or a little power. Making power adjustments really makes the nose move around until you learn to get your feet working. A little power during the flare can help prevent a slammer if you flare to high or balloon. It also seems to smooth out the pitch reactions a little.

 

two cents

[sandpiper]

For a "normal" landing I like flaps 15, 55 knots on final, and a little power in the flare. This is most comfortable to passengers, especially non-pilots, since more flaps gives a pronounced nose down attitude. I always maintain my proficiency with 30 and 40 flaps.

 

 

[Ed Cesnalis]

Closed throttle and 30 degrees and 55kts for me for normal landings. Big gusty winds and I'll go 15 degrees, 60+kts and power as needed including touching down with the throttle more open then closed.

[FastEddieB]

I can't speak specifically about the CT, but in general I think landing with power can be a crutch. I like my students to be at idle about 100' above the ground on short final. Its hard enough to find the right pitch (at or near stall), keep the nose straight, and stay on the centerline. In my experience futzing with power can be the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.

 

Unless there's something quirky about the CT, that is.

[FastEddieB]

I start students and transition pilots with 0 flap and a touch of power. Then we work into 15 flap, and finally 30 and 40.

 

Whatever works for you!

 

But all my students over the years have learned full-flap power off landings first. Law of Primacy and all that.

 

I'd just make sure that when you're done with them, they realize that full flap landings are the norm - conditions permitting.

[CT4ME]

I'd just make sure that when you're done with them, they realize that full flap landings are the norm - conditions permitting.

 

With the CT, I've found very few folks who do full flaps... as their normal landing. Full flaps is pretty radical. The pitch is quite pronounced and the flair takes more expertise. A full flaps landing in a CT is a sweet thing, when everything happens perfectly. But with full flaps, several things come together that makes the percentage of great landings go down. I know the tradition has been full flaps, but tradition has also been responsible for a good percentage of light sport accidents.

 

We should add a poll... What is your "normal" landing flap setting....

 

 

Tim

[FastEddieB]

What does the CT POH say on the subject of flaps?

 

For that matter, is the POH available online for me to check myself?

 

BTW, my last plane before my Sky Arrow was a Cirrus. Full flap landings are the only landings condoned by the POH, other than for flap failure or training for said failure. Even in gusty crosswinds, full flaps are pretty much mandated, and if a pilot found himself with a damaged plane after a no- or partial-flap landing, he might have some 'splainin' to do with why he chose to disregard the POH.

 

A Cirrus is MUCH more likely to suffer a tailstrike when landings are made with no flaps - this is probably why the POH mandates them.

 

If anyone with a CT lives in the SE US, I'd love to try one - and I'll buy a Mexican lunch at El Rio in Copperhill, TN as incentive! I'll even bring some ethanol-free 93 octane MOGAS!

[coppercity]

FastEddie, of course I never let a student go without landing at all flap settings. The CT is very quirky in landings especially with full flaps which is why I start students with 0 and 15 flaps. I have flown over 40 different single engine aircraft from C-120's and Cubs to Cirrus, and by far the CT is the most difficult to land well with full flaps. The Cirrus is the easiest airplane Ive ever flown, its a dream to land.

 

The CT isn't hard once you figure out the sight picture and the energy management. Once you have that nailed, landing at any flap setting is just a blast. 0 and 15 flap approaches seem very normal in pitch attitude compared to say a Cessna or Piper. Once you go past 15 to 30 and 40, the nose down pitch attitude is pretty steep though the descent rate is not significantly greater. You have to be careful because the upper limit of the flap extension speed is only 62kts with 30 and 40 flap so its easy to go over that limit with thermal activity which is another reason I like 0 and 15 flaps. Energy management is extremly important with the CT during the flare with higher flap settings, being such a light airplane you have to flare at the exact altitude above the runway with the power at idle to get anything less than a ground breaking landing, a little power does help that. Students tend to over flare the CT from these steeper approaches causing balloons, and very hard landings to follow. Approach speeds are very slow with 30 and 40 flaps (about 50-55kts)which make it great for short field landings, especially with a nice headwind.

 

You really need to get a flight in a CT to see what I'm talking about. If you ever get to AZ, Id be glad to take you up. I'm sure we could learn a lot from each others experience.

 

Regards

[N78BZ]

I've done full flap landings in the CTLS, and I still occasionally practice them on a very calm day. As a matter of course, a 'normal' landing for me is 15 degrees flaps and 0 degrees in any significant crosswind. The relevant part of the CTLS POH says:

 

 

 

And Eddie, pilots are urged to be particularly careful with flaps in windy conditions:

 

[FastEddieB]

Thanks, guys.

 

The CT sounds a little "quirky", and I'd love to get my hands on one if anyone in the Southeast can find their way to Copperhill, TN.

 

For comparison, and to test my image posting skills, here's the deal on the Cirrus:

 

[TAYLOR ALLEGRO]

Another perspective.

 

At 56 I started lessons in a Allegro 2000. I have never flown anything before.. My CFI taught power off full flap (48) in the Allegro.. I had a very hard time learning how to land. The controls were so mushy that I had little idea just what a rudder and elevator really did. After hours and hours and dollars and dollars I was able to solo, yet not very comfortable with landings.. After reading the advice of others Sport Pilots on forums such as this, I tried 15 flaps and 2600-2700 RPM on final. It was like magic. I could now understand just what the controls do during landing.. With this knowledge my landings became better, smoother, easier on the landing gear and build in me some confidence.. I now practice all flap setting often and CAN do good landings at power off and full flaps.. My advice for new students in a LSA, having never flown before, would be to start with no or minimal flaps and some power at first, then move over to short and soft field landings..Back to the comment on Principle of Primacy... Learn what you are going to use most of the time and then learn the lesser used landings.. Just like you learn straight and level flight, turns, climb and decent before you do full power on stalls and engine out landings..

 

If you are transitioning from another aircraft I have no comment as I have never experienced that..

 

Brian N3081X

Taylor, Az

[rookie]

From a rookies perspective here’s my observations and analysis re: flaps. Might help another new convert. All are based on flying solo ( 150# with a rock in my pocket) 2/3 tanks, low density alt.

 

1) 15 deg. is my one size fits all. I refer to it as my “training wheels” setting. Good sight picture, predictable glide profile, responsive control but not twitchy, easy flare on the mains.

2) 0 deg., initially I didn’t care for the pitch angle but now find it comfortable @ 63 knots (best glide). The easiest flap setting to “tip toe” on to the runway.

3) 30 deg. Still trying to work out the best glide profile. Very twitchy and unpredictable in the flare. One ldg. might be as smooth as a baby’s behind the next a “plant it”.

4) 40 deg. Must be good for something but so far hard to control. Might like it when I get better. So far it’s like landing a balloon. Probably more weight or higher density alt. might help.

5) Initially I liked 0 flaps since it was easier to “grease” it on but now I like 15 deg., however at the flare, just at the point it starts to settle I add just a touch of throttle (not as much as Cessna with high flare, but same idea), just a few rpm and it slows the decent and “tip toes” on the runway, much like 0 flaps.

 

As I said, this is all based on solo, cool weather, low wind, and low density alt. etc.. When I get back to AZ and fly with a passenger I’ll probably change my mind.

 

Another point for a new convert. Don’t get discouraged!!!!! I started to wonder if I’d made a big mistake. Called it my “Little Demon”. Now I could never go back to a Cessna or even an Allegra. 4CT is just too much fun to fly plus it will always be a challenge.

[fevlok@mmhs.co.za]

Re landing the ctsw

 

My wife have a ctsw2007   for me Coming from  a Mooney (over 1000h and 14years ,landing the Mooney sometime you wonder exactly when the weels contac the ground  )

 

I realy batle to land the ct smoothly always a bit of a thump,sometimes more than a bit (even after 300 + landings and 400h)

 

I learn to add a touch of power the moment i fell a defenite sink  and manage desent landings 

Odly my best landing is always  in dificult conditions  

 

I found stolspeed mikro vg's on the net   and  put it on the wing about 7% from the leading edge   en on the underside of the stabilator about 10% from the leading edge

 

What  a diference for me  I can land her at  any flap setting  15/30 or 40 al good power of landings  and  ad a tricle of power for real greasers , no diference in cruising speed

 

Downside is cleaning the wing  

 

Kiewiet

[Runtoeat]

Hi Kiewiet.  Interesting results from adding the VG's. I often experience a sudden drop in my CTSW just before touchdown and need to add a squirt of power to offset this.  Wonder if others have installed VG's on their CT's and what their findings are?

[Roger Lee]

Hi Dick,

 

Keep a little power in to touch and a tad more speed and it won't ever drop.

[FastEddieB]

I still advocate power off by about 50' or so - power should not be necessary when landing most GA planes and I still hold it can be a bandaid covering up some other deficiency in the landing process.

 

As an aside, none of the landings in any of my videos has anything more than idle power in the roundout and flare.

 

But, as usual, that's still just me, and whatever works!

[Ed Cesnalis]

Power is needed on high DA days  just to maintain base turn and final speeds above stall.  

 

Why can't you just lower the nose?

 

Speed is maintained with pitch and power adjustments.  I always reduce power to idle when abeam the numbers ( our pattern isn't busy )  I trim for 55kts and use 30 degrees.

 

I find it interesting that this 4 year old thread has only me advocating full flaps and 1.3 Vso. (FastEddie excluded)

 

I find that I don't need power at touchdown, instead once I'm slow enough ( behind the power curve ) I pull the stick all the way back to the stop.  The extra travel softens my contact.

[FastEddieB]

But on high DA days, the altitude loss is more pronounced.

Is it really?

 

To put the Socratic method to the test...

 

...how does the increased density altitude affect power-off glide ratio?

 

I suspect you're imaging something that's not there - assuming you're using the same IAS, which you should be.

[Ed Cesnalis]

CT,  we are talking about the sequence from abeam the numbers on downwind when 15 flaps are set and the nose is pitched down.  But on high DA days, the altitude loss is more pronounced.  i like to be at half pattern altitude mid base and staying at 62kts all the way to the threshold.

 

I have notice a pronounced difference flying during the winter when it's 50 degrees at pattern altitude and field elevation 5,000 than when its 70 degrees.  During the winter I can pull the throttle to idle abeam the numbers on downwind and make the base, final turn  and final approach easily maintaining 62kts all the way to threshold.  On 70 degree days, the same scenario requires throttle until about halfway on final and sometimes all the way to the threshold before pulling back to idle, again crossing at 62kts and leveling out to land.

 

You can pull to idle when you are abeam and make the threshold at your target speed winter or summer.  I agree with you its much easier in the winter.  Winter or summer if you are at idle you have to rely on pitch to maintain speed.  If you have to pitch down to maintain your approach speed you may have to fly a tighter pattern to avoid the need for power.

[Ed Cesnalis]

Is it really?

 

To put the Socratic method to the test...

 

...how does the increased density altitude affect power-off glide ratio?

 

I suspect you're imaging something that's not there - assuming you're using the same IAS, which you should be.

 

Eddie,

 

Here in the far west's high mountains and high deserts, when flying very light aircraft there is a profound difference between winter and summer air.  The winter air is dense and stable providing good, predictable performance.  The summer air usually provides thermals, dust devils, gust fronts, lee side turbulence ... etc.  

 

A typical summer landing for me is on Rnwy 09 because its close to my hangar.  There are likely a few turkey vultures on final riding the thermal and that means the approach begins by entering big lift  and then finding the sink on the other side.

 

The altitude loss is more pronounced in the summer except where its not.  I would suggest there is more shear and that results in more reliance on the throttle and throttle adjustments.

[FastEddieB]

 

The altitude loss is more pronounced in the summer except where its not.  I would suggest there is more shear and that results in more reliance on the throttle and throttle adjustments.

Sure.

 

My point was that it seemed like 100Hamburger was implying the plane in general descended faster in thinner air.

 

I don't think it does.

[Ed Cesnalis]

Sure.

 

My point was that it seemed like 100Hamburger was implying the plane in general descended faster in thinner air.

 

I don't think it does.

 

Isn't there some truth to it?  Right now density altitude at the airport is 10,100' so I wouldn't want to approach Bernath style using ground speed from my smartphone. Indicated airspeed will self adjust and have me 66kts (less any headwind) over the ground while indicating 55kts.  Descending faster but covering more ground in the thinner air.

 

We are starting at high DA and this time of year it is higher yet but on a percentage basis the increase is small and I doubt that is what 100burgers is reacting to.  I suspect its instability more than low density.  

[FastEddieB]

I'm open to being wrong here, but...

 

...consider this chart:

 

 

The plane should glide equally well at any altitude*, hence the straight line.

 

It really should not need any more power to maintain 62 kias on base at 10,000' than it does at SL.

 

I think. In fact, I'm pretty sure.

 

Either I'm missing something or we have another "Stick and Rudder" teachable moment.

 

 

*and, counterintuitively, at any weight.