Jump to content

Ban student pilots from our CTLS flying club?


Joel Severinghaus

Recommended Posts

Hi Roger!

 

You're right, he's a dick. However, they are fully within their authority to deny further clearance, and I told my (nervous) instructor that he can't violate him because the regulation is an ATC regulation, not a pilot reg.

 

By the way, KLCK's tower is military, and this controller IS the tower manager.

 

So you can't ask for a low approach, or option from this joint use tower?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 71
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Hi Anticept,

 

 

That's the real problem. This controller wants to throw authority around he really doesn't have. He's a bully so it's time to call his bluff. I guarantee he will loose. Unless they have special restrictions in place the instructor broke no rules. Once cleared with no special instructions the runway was his.

He can not deny any aircraft given those circumstances and needs to get a supervisor involved and or the FAA if they don't address the retaliation from that or those controllers.

Many years ago my airfield would not allow Ultralights to come in. I quick letter from an attorney letting them know that failure to do this would cost them their federal funding had them change their minds over night.

 

You know what's fun about stuffed shirts?

They're even more fun to un-stuff. ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Anticept,

 

 

That's the real problem. This controller wants to throw authority around he really doesn't have. He's a bully so it's time to call his bluff. I guarantee he will loose. Unless they have special restrictions in place the instructor broke no rules. Once cleared with no special instructions the runway was his.

He can not deny any aircraft given those circumstances and needs to get a supervisor involved and or the FAA if they don't address the retaliation from that or those controllers.

Many years ago my airfield would not allow Ultralights to come in. I quick letter from an attorney letting them know that failure to do this would cost them their federal funding had them change their minds over night.

 

You know what's fun about stuffed shirts?

They're even more fun to un-stuff. ;)

 

It's a joint civil-military airfield, and a military tower. The FAA has no authority over them.

 

So you can't ask for a low approach, or option from this joint use tower?

 

Low approaches are not allowed unless you touch wheels down.

 

Here's a bulletin on the matter: http://www.faa.gov/a.../atb_dec_10.pdf . I did notice in this document that if a touch and go is made, they can't say anything. I don't know if my instructor was going to have the wheels touch, still though, the tower controller acted like an ass.

 

As said, it's an ATC rule, not a pilot rule.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To play devil's advocate...

 

...to control the flow of traffic and spacing, controllers do need to be able to anticipate what a pilot is going to do with some certainty.

 

When he's got a light plane on final, he will space the next plane assuming a normal approach and landing.

 

So, while "cleared to land" may allow a pilot to "own" the runway, I have always found it proper to give the controller a head's up if I'm doing anything out of the ordinary.

 

At Knoxville (KTYS) I can save miles of taxiing by landing long when assigned RWY 5R - TACAir is very close to the approach end of 23L. But though I might have a right to do so, I always advise the tower of my intention in the form of a request - and I don't ever recall being turned down. But if they said,"Unable, Citation on short final behind you", I would fully understand and do my best to make the first turnoff.

 

Same with a "hover", though I've never heard that term used regarding fixed wing, if I was a controller I think I'd like a head's up if a plane was going to overfly the entire runway at low altitude.

 

I've also been known to "drop a dime" on a rude or overreaching controller. Rare, but I've done it at least once.

 

But the exception proves the rule - once in a rather long flying career points out how easy it usually is to work together with controllers for a common goal - efficient flight and air safety.

 

I'm not taking either side. But I try to instill in my students that ATC is there US, not the other way around. If they went away tomorrow, most of us could manage somehow. But if we all went away tomorrow, they'd be out of a job!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We seem to have good relationships with controllers here. One suggestion for those who might have some problems communicating with controllers: Visit the control tower and meet the people behind he mics. My father-in-law was in the FAA and he ran the avionics and radar departments at many airports throughout his carreer. While visiting in Clearwater, Florida, he invited me to go with him to work at KTPA. We went up into the tower and he gave me a tour and we talked to the controllers. I asked if this was legal and he said everyone has the right to visit airport facilities, you just have to ask. Of course, he was one of the managers and this was way before 911 but I have also done this in recent times here at the airports I fly into. Another suggestion is to invite the controllers to take a ride in your CT. Some have taken me up on this. These are normally the pilots working in ATC. They say they see me do things that an "ultralight" shouldn't be able to do (like climb out faster and higher than Pipers and Cessnas on parallel runways) and are amazed when they get up in the plane with me and find that the CT is "a real airplane". Another suggestion is to invite your controllers to one of your EAA or community meetings. We do this once or twice a year at our EAA and FAAST meetins. This is a really good way to get to know one another and discuss what's bugging both sides. Facetime like this really helps develop communication and cooperation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gentlemen,

Let's be perfectly clear here.

"Hover" is strictly a helicopter term.

The term has no place within the fixed-wing community. :angry:

Matter of fact, even the mention of it, is considered an insult to die hard fixed-wing pilots.

 

From an old "rotor-head."

And . . . . proud of it! :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's a joint civil-military airfield, and a military tower. The FAA has no authority over them.

 

 

 

Low approaches are not allowed unless you touch wheels down.

 

Here's a bulletin on the matter: http://www.faa.gov/a.../atb_dec_10.pdf . I did notice in this document that if a touch and go is made, they can't say anything. I don't know if my instructor was going to have the wheels touch, still though, the tower controller acted like an ass.

 

As said, it's an ATC rule, not a pilot rule.

 

I looked at the document, and it should not be used to stop the low and slow passes for training purposes. They are not done for thrill and are necessary for flight training.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gentlemen,

Let's be perfectly clear here.

"Hover" is strictly a helicopter term.

The term has no place within the fixed-wing community. :angry:

Matter of fact, even the mention of it, is considered an insult to die hard fixed-wing pilots.

 

From an old "rotor-head."

And . . . . proud of it! :)

 

I wish you'd quit hovering in this thread waiting to correct people! :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Update: Our flying club board of directors voted at our recent meeting to ban student pilots. Well, not exactly "ban", but suspend admission of any new student pilots until we know the status of our insurance renewal. Our six current student pilot members will be allowed to complete their Sport or Private pilot training.

 

We're worried about the existential threat of not being able to renew or get insurance after two student pilot hard-landing damage claims this year. And the eight club members who are Sport/Pilot/Commercial pilots are frustrated by five months of airplane downtime this year, during which we still had to pay $110 monthly dues for the overhead expenses of an airplane we couldn't fly. On the other hand, without the student pilot members, we'd have to double the dues for the remaining pilots. And most of our revenue this year from hourly airplane fees has been coming from the student pilots, who are flying many more hours than the other members. Different situation for a flying club than an FBO or flight school -- when the airplane is grounded for repairs, all the pilots share the inconvenience and financial pain.

 

Keep your fingers crossed for us as we shop for insurance for 2014.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Did you discuss this issue with your insurance company? They might be able to provide recommendations, and by showing them you are trying to resolve the problem, they might be less skiddish about renewal.

 

If you lose insurance, you are going to find it is very difficult to get a new company to insure. My predecessor's flying club shut down because of that, and NO ONE would give him insurance. It took some string pulling from a friend of ours who put his reputation on the line. He talked to some insurance CEOs that he knows, and they issued insurance to the club that replaced the old one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 9 months later...

That's a tough call. It's like you want to encourage people to learn to fly...but then again, the plane I rent has been damaged 3 times since I've been around. All 3 were students I believe.

 

But lets be honest it's not like once you pass your checkride you become exempt :) I'm still capable of doing something dumb.

 

I feel like some of the blame could be on the instructors for sure... but I have seen both sides of this coin. My instructor solo'd me at 9 hours. I wasn't sure I was ready, but he was. I made 5 good landings and that was that. I consider him to be a very good instructor.... he solo'd another student at ~20 hours and she nearly totaled the plane.. it was down for months. I don't feel he made a mistake.. but yet, he obviously made a mistake...

 

Sure hope your guys can get the insurance all sorted out though.

 

They were looking to trade the SW that has had the 4-5 total incidents... one of the instructors told me I should buy it. I'm thinking to myself, no way, I don't want a plane used for training.. that poor thing has been beat up every way you can beat one up!  :lol: just kinda funny how that works

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is the official on the Samba crash.    http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=158404

 

Here is a writeup on the owner/pilot:

 

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2013/08/unconfirmed-fatalities-urban-air-sro.html

 

I do not have the NTSB report.  But we know the throttle was stuck wide open and the plane had half full tanks.  We also know Paul was in the right seat, and his partner in the plane (student pilot) was in the left seat.

 

The area where they crashed is a well used dry lake bed practice area about 14 miles from the field.   Paul was a Sport Pilot (no prior certs) and had owned the plane for two years.  Since Paul was in the plane with A student pilot in the left seat we know he was doing so against the regs.  Some of us are guessing he was giving his plane partner/student friend lessons, or attempting too. 

 

What happened may never really be known because both men are dead.  But given how they were found, it appeared they either stalled at a higher speed, or touched a wingtip at higher speed since the plane was obliterated.  The wings were sheared off, the empennage snapped away, the cockpit and avionics intact.  The canopy broken off, the prop bent.

 

--------------

 

The other crash. I was told they guy was older and a had a commercial rating.  But this seems to indicate he was younger.  And doesn't give his cert level.  The rumor might have come because this guys dad crashed a couple of years ago, and he was 72.

 

http://www.rgj.com/story/news/2014/06/03/small-plane-near-dayton-airpark/9930677/

 

http://kathrynaviationnews.com/?p=220531

Seems lately , there have been a significant amount of crashes, by pilots doing "aerobatics " or aerobatic like manouvers, while not trained, and in non aerobatic aircraft.

 

Cheers

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...