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Gun thread - excised?


FastEddieB

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What message do you want to relay to all of them about yourself and the forum?

 

I am not always talking to all 794 members or the entire world. My message varies from post to post. We should be saying to the world that we are a group of pilots and aircraft owners and represent an array of perspectives. We are more polite and more informed than many other groups and all of our opinions are potentially valuable to the other members and public. When censorship is employed I am sometimes not the target buy my stuff gets wiped out with the targeted message.

 

Why should I have to self censor and hide any thoughts that some on the left deem off limits? The censorship does tend to come from the left.

 

Those that censor here tend to post their final word and call the subject closed, sometimes even lock the thread. The truth is the majority follow more liberal thinking and object to opposing thinking.

 

We live in a free society with free speech as the 1st right enumerated in our bill of rights, why in the world is this forum so much more restrictive?

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BTW, I go to some lengths not to call names or attack.

 

I'm not perfect, but at most I might use humor or mild sarcasm to get my point across.

 

Of note, this thread seems to be the most active right now.

 

There's only so much to say about full stall landings or debris in float bowls or whatever.

 

Just sayin'.

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Hi Eddie,

 

I agree with the scalpel idea and it seems admin was a little heavy handed, but after months of trying to get some peoples attention and receiving offended emails maybe they thought they needed to get peoples attention since it wasn't working.

 

How hard can it be to leave out vindictive personal attacks and comments?

 

If someone is venting and worked up over a post then your answer might be better off deleted before you send it. I delete at least 25%+ of my post after writing them because they will solve nothing, correct nothing and have no informative value that can further the education on a particular thread. For me I walk away from threads that have come to and end and or become too heated. When I was young I had a terrible and sometimes physical temper. I took a hard look in the mirror one day after seeing someone else act that way then I taught myself to turn the other cheek and walk away. Nothing on any forum or on a single post will change the world or shatter my life. It's just a single post in the all consuming universe that in the long run no one will care about, but I'll look like an idiot for posting it or like the other poster that people were shaking their head about in the first place. Why lower yourself.

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I would just like to see everyone happy campers. I love this forum when we all band together like close knit family and help inform, educate, respect and offer to visit each other. We have been that way and no reason not to be. We all have great experiences and info to share.

 

Compared to other forums it's a sight to see. makes you feel kind of warm and fuzzy inside. :) Okay I know that went too far, but you know what I mean. :lol:

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As one of the people probably responsible for the other thread closing, I would like to mention it.

 

In online forums (fora?) I try to add to the discussion with data, pictures, suggestions, or comments that others might find helpful. I don't like rude behavior. When a post tries to ridicule others in a malicious way, my gloves come off. I treat others with respect, but when it becomes clear they are not treating me or others in that way, I respond in kind, even if it makes the forum moderators uncomfortable. ;)

 

I think bad behavior needs to be called out as such.

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As one of the people probably responsible for the other thread closing, I would like to mention it.

 

In online forums (fora?) I try to add to the discussion with data, pictures, suggestions, or comments that others might find helpful. I don't like rude behavior. When a post tries to ridicule others in a malicious way, my gloves come off. I treat others with respect, but when it becomes clear they are not treating me or others in that way, I respond in kind, even if it makes the forum moderators uncomfortable. ;)

 

I think bad behavior needs to be called out as such.

 

Worthy of note was where that thread went off the rails.

 

Early on, words to the effect of, "You guys make me laugh."

 

Again, I tried to keep my responses respectful, yet also sharp and relevant and maybe humorous, without personal attack or name calling.

 

And I will continue to try to do so.

 

 

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I am not interested in proper carry of firearms in the airplane nor arguments about the second amendment and, worse, a fight over abortion. I am interested in a review of the laws that regulate carry of firearms in the airplane. If the thread stayed on that topic, I suspect it would still be here.

 

But, the point remains. In my opinion, this isn't the town square where any talk is permitted and encouraged. This is the CT Flier Forum where talk is legitimately limited to flying topics. I see the Second Amendment, abortion, and other similar unrelated topics as destructive to the goals of the forum. This isn't censorship, you get to talk about those things all over the place.

 

And, in defense of the moderators, there is no arbitrary elimination of "Remos" or other such topics and the comparison to another (now defunct) forum is false (IMHO). The moderators are not perfect nor is it fair to expect perfection from them. But, they protect this resource when they limit acrimonious discussions on topics completely unrelated to flying.

 

My two cents.

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When you get into the topics of religion and politics, it gets very personal very quickly. If that's what the owners of this site want, so be it. Just realize you are going to alienate a sizable percentage of participants. Personally, I suggest that people who want to debate those issues, find a site devoted to those topics and keep these aviation sites on the topic of aviation.

 

The thing is the thread wasn't political, but some chose to turn it into that becuase of thier views. I agree that this is an aviation forum dedicated to CT's. What better place to ask about carrying something in our airplanes than a forum that knows our airplanes?

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As the "British guy" who posted early on that thread I'd like to apologise for my off hand and ill thought remark.

What had never crossed my mind in considering the post is that you fly over terrain where something might well kill you in the event of a forced landing (we might get trampled by a herd of cows but probably nothing worse!) and in that context even I can see the case for carrying a gun.

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As an admin of several websites (one worth mentioning is wiremod.com which at once point had thousands of people active at once, most have moved to https://github.com/wiremod/wire), I'm going to put out my experiences. This post is not meant to call out one specific person (although I will comment on a couple things that are said), it is meant to understand why a stop should be put to certain discussions that turn into flame wars.

 

First, you can't make everyone happy, and you cannot ignore everything either. The common theme that I am seeing in this thread is "I DONT NEED TO BE CENSORED". The only thing that screams to me as a site admin is the person making the statement is part of the problem. Maybe that isn't what is intend, but that's what is portrayed, especially if that's a reaction to a single deleted thread that had quite clearly devolved into a mud slinging contest. (EDIT: I need to clarify this. It's meant to say, if someone complains about censorship, but goes about bringing attention to their age age, their authority, etc, it doesn't sound any different than the guy who says "I'm 20 years old, I'm an adult, I don't need this crap," or the guy who says "I have 20,000 hours, I don't need you telling me what to do!" I was trying to call attention to the undertone being portrayed in the post)

 

Censorship can spiral out of control and put people off. It also can be applied too lightly. Roger and I had a discussion over the phone about posts that get thrown up regularly that are misinformed on this site. These aren't censored because things are self-correcting when it comes to relaying proper information. In contrast, however, because of over-generalization and labeling in personal attacks, it tends to insult more than just their target, and drags more and more people into the thread. Deleting a thread and/or warning the users when things turn ugly isn't about censorship, it's about damage control. Also, personal attacks generate animosity and rivals. Rivalry in itself is not a bad thing though because humans tend to do well in an environment with a healthy (but mild) amount of rivalry.

 

Personal attacks go beyond rivalry though, and tends to be carried beyond the thread. We've seen it happen already on this forum numerous times revolving around those misinformed posts, generating replies from people who aren't even involved in the conversation and almost jumping straight to attacking. One thread that I posted to shortly after joining, I posted some useful information and asked two people politely if they could take it easy, we're all friends, and it ended up dragging me into a flight. I had to immediately try to withdraw and appear disarming to avoid being attacked, something that really put me off, but I gave everyone a chance because I've administrated web forums for 15 years, and sometimes people get heated.

 

There's a term us site admins call these threads that devolve into arguments. "Flame wars". Flames tend to set other things on fire, just like arguments spill over. Left uncontrolled, things get really bad. I tried the hands off approach on wiremod.com once. Reddit moderators have tried it in a couple popular subreddits. "Hands off" approaches just don't work in online forums. In real life, if a conversation gets heated, it tends to bother those around you who are not involved, doesn't it? On a forum, the same thing happens.

 

On a personal level, if things get bad in a thread, I just "blacklist" it and stop going back to it. That carrying a gun thread was one that I stopped viewing after Admin2 had to step in. But also speaking from a personal level, blacklisting too many threads becomes tiresome, and I would stop wanting to visit the site.

 

The "slippery slope" goes both ways when it comes to forums. That thread definitely was slipping towards flame wars, and needed a correction. I don't know if outright deleting the thread was necessary, but I personally would have at least locked it and told all involved to take it to private messages, thereby removing the audience part of the "Greater internet fuckwad theory" (also see: "Online disinhibition effect"), and helping to calm a situation.

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As the "British guy" who posted early on that thread I'd like to apologise for my off hand and ill thought remark.

What had never crossed my mind in considering the post is that you fly over terrain where something might well kill you in the event of a forced landing (we might get trampled by a herd of cows but probably nothing worse!) and in that context even I can see the case for carrying a gun.

 

Here's my concern Ian,

 

BRS'ing into Yellowstone or Yosemite Park . . . broken leg and small cuts upon impact . . . night has fallen . . . still no help . . .

Bears, wolves and coyotes can smell blood miles away.

Go figure.

 

A 38 revolver is better than no protection at all. If nothing else . . . it makes a lot of noise. :)

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Whew! All this over a simple aviation discussion? Wow....

 

Haven't you noticed I tend to type out very large and usually well thought out replies? :). Sometimes people don't say what is on their mind, so I try to address most concerns, including unspoken ones.

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...The common theme that I am seeing in this thread is "I DONT NEED TO BE CENSORED F*** YOU".

 

Wow,

 

I'm the one that conveyed the message that I am 60 years old and well behaved and don't need to be censored. You have to add the 'F*** YOU' to make me sound like an ass when I backed up my statement by pointing out that we are [sometimes] religious and [usually] political pilots and aircraft owners that are more polite and often more knowledgeable than most. You're trying to make me sound like an ass when I presented a reasoned point of view.

 

When I get together with pilot friends we don't all agree on these things but we are friends and civil and learn from and influence one another. This forum could and should be an even broader place to communicate with aviation enthusiasts.

 

The common theme I am seeing is a call for control on our speech. How boring.

 

I found the conflict fascinating, the commonwealth guys stick with their inability to even understand that we would choose to carry for protection from all threats human and animal. I can't help but feel that since the world wars the US has funded our group defense and then to think we are laughed at is a fascinating concept. It doesn't make me think any differently of Mike and Ian. I am still amazed at Mike's environment and videos and I still enjoy Ian's foreign point of view.

 

I was impressed with how offended and offensive Andy got, makes me curious about his LE background.

 

The sky is not falling because we talk freely, don't silence us please.

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Wow,

 

I'm the one that conveyed the message that I am 60 years old and well behaved and don't need to be censored. You have to add the 'F*** YOU' to make me sound like an ass when I backed up my statement by pointing out that we are [sometimes] religious and [usually] political pilots and aircraft owners that are more polite and often more knowledgeable than most. You're trying to make me sound like an ass when I presented a reasoned point of view.

 

When I get together with pilot friends we don't all agree on these things but we are friends and civil and learn from and influence one another. This forum could and should be an even broader place to communicate with aviation enthusiasts.

 

The common theme I am seeing is a call for control on our speech. How boring.

 

I found the conflict fascinating, the commonwealth guys stick with their inability to even understand that we would choose to carry for protection from all threats human and animal. I can't help but feel that since the world wars the US has funded our group defense and then to think we are laughed at is a fascinating concept. It doesn't make me think any differently of Mike and Ian. I am still amazed at Mike's environment and videos and I still enjoy Ian's foreign point of view.

 

I was impressed with how offended and offensive Andy got, makes me curious about his LE background.

 

The sky is not falling because we talk freely, don't silence us please.

 

Concur CT. :)

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Hmmmm... I didn't word that correctly, it's not conveying the message I'm trying to say. I'll try again.

 

It's meant to say, if someone complains about censorship, but goes about bringing attention to their age age, their authority, etc, it doesn't sound any different than the guy who says "I'm 20 years old, I'm an adult, I don't need this crap," or the guy who says "I have 20,000 hours, I don't need you telling me what to do!" I'm not trying to insult you CharlieTango, rather that the way you said it, it felt like the general undertone of your post and, at least for me, distracted from the point you were trying to make :).

 

I'm going to put that clarification in my first post. Blasted text forums make it hard to convey the emotion and body language of a post too...

 

EDIT: Removed the "F*** YOU" part in my original post. It was a poor choice of words that is meant for a different audience.

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You didn't insult me you mis-characterize my message. I'm not a FU kind of guy I gave reasons even if you think pointing at being 60 is a bogus reason.

 

I live in a ski resort and the 20 something snow boarders commonly use violence or at least profanity in public to intimidate people, the senior citizens generally don't act that way. It is a generalization but one that applies well to this site, average age is up there and civility is the norm.

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You didn't insult me you mis-characterize my message. I'm not a FU kind of guy I gave reasons even if you think pointing at being 60 is a bogus reason.

 

I live in a ski resort and the 20 something snow boarders commonly use violence or at least profanity in public to intimidate people, the senior citizens generally don't act that way. It is a generalization but one that applies well to this site, average age is up there and civility is the norm.

 

As a side note, the 20 year olds tend to be much more profane, but the seniors tend to be more sharp and biting with their word choice. I know you generalized, but I've seen my fair share of both young and old being loud, idiotic, or stupid. It is not what they say or do, but the motivations behind it that I pay attention to, because that's what shows their real character. When you look at people from that angle, you start to see that age has very little to do with anything, except how sharp and refined their attacks can be :).

 

Oh and, sometimes old farts can be quite subtle and underhanded, something that I take notice of, but often co-workers miss it, so it makes me look like the bad guy! :P

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Since you continue to defend I will concede. I'm 60 and FU if you censor me, there fixed.

 

Concede from what? I'm confused. I'm not trying to attack you, just pointing out age shouldn't be a factor in a discussion, or even brought up, unless it's directly relevant, such as answering the question "What was the 70's like?"

 

And sorry about mis-characterising your post. Just trying to say that when a person brings age or authority into a discussion when it's not directly relevant, it erodes their position rather than strengthens it. And the old fart was a razz, hence the :P

 

Another example of how these discussions degenerate. This one went to bigotry and ended with an FU. This is why aviation forums should stick to aviation. There is plenty of disagreement there, but not quite as volatile.

 

Let it sort itself out. I'm not trying to insult CharlieTango (on the contrary, I think he's a pretty cool guy), but it's hard to convey some of the relevant points I'm trying to make without seeming like a bigot :)

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