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Another dead battery. What's the favorite charger/maintainer of the board?


opticsguy

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I'm getting about 3 winters out of each battery. During the winter my plane can sit up to 4 weeks and it can be cold (~10F). I don't keep it on a float charger, but I do charge it for 10-15 minutes with my Optimate 4 while doing pre-flight. I'm starting to think my charger is fried (it did get we once) because it went to float charge when the battery was at 12.4V (which is less than 50% on an AGM).

 

Either way, I in the market for another battery and this time a good charger that I can leave on the plane (e.g., temperature compensation).

 

I'm sure this has been covered at length, but not very recently.

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I've used a CTEK 3300 "charger/maintainer" the last few years on my CT's Odyssey battery. The other charger that I've used for all of my other batteries, including my truck battery which I store for the winter, is the Noco Genius 1100. These are especially recommended for AGM batteries like our Odyssey and have a separate selection to maintain AGM . Just connect it after every flight and close the hangar door and forget about it. The CTEK literature says it compensates for temperature and I believe the Noco does also. Chanik, the Forum's electronics guru, indicates these really don't compensate. I believe him but I've used both maintainers with occasional sub-zero winter temps for the last 5 years and my batteries seem to always maintain full charge. One thing to watch if you're using the exhaust pipe for a ground - I've found my charger worked intermittently when I did this. I now use a engine mount bracket to clip the ground to which I know is fully grounded back to the battery. No more problems. You're correct, this subject has been discussed thoroughly. Perhaps putting "charger" in the Forum's "search" engine might bring up posts?

 

FWIW, GM supplies all new Corvette owners with a CTEK maintainer for the AGM battery which comes installed from the factory. As I recall, this might be the CTEK 3300?

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For a long while, I had trouble flying as often as I would have liked and my battery suffered for it. Originally, I used the Mean Well battery charger recommended by the folks in Florida. I don't know if it got damaged during a thunderstorm or what. But, after a new battery started acting up unexpectedly soon, I switched chargers.

 

Last summer, I started using the Deltran Battery Tender Plus which does have temperature compensation (at least according to their literature).

 

http://batterytender...v-at-1-25a.html

 

I leave it hooked up whenever the plane is in the hangar. I have been able to fly more often in the past year and my CTSW has been starting like it is as eager to go flying as I am.

 

I don't know if this one is any better or worse than Dick Harrison's charger.

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I don't know if all "smart" chargers are the same but probably are. My understanding is the "set and forget" chargers most of us are using monitor the battery voltage and go into a charging state when the battery voltage drops to a certain level and then go back into a monitoring state. These chargers do not "trickle charge" the battery. AGM batteries require unique charging compared to flooded batteries and it appears that they can be ruined quickly if the wrong charger is used.

 

Post Addition: 2FlyAgain, The Odyssey battery in our CT's has a long shelf life and performs better in cold temps than a flooded battery so you really shouldn't need charge maintenance if it sits for a few weeks if there is no external voltage drain. If you have really cold ambient temps and/or if you have glass panel (Dynon's, etc.) and also often use your Nav and landing lights too, you may find that your battery voltage is slightly low and needs to be brought back up to the proper level when you put your plane away.

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When I'm taxi-ing and are it idle, my Dynon shows low battery voltage until i shut off my transponder. I've always assumed that after a flight, my battery is fully charged, but maybe it isn't. Pattern flying, much of it at idle, may not charge the battery if the transponder is on, landing light on, and my new position lights (~3A) are on.

 

I just ordered two CTEKs, a 3300 for the hangar and a 7002 for my cars and solar setup.

 

My CT battery was down to 11.7V without load. Is it permanently damaged or can it be recovered?

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Pattern flying, much of it at idle, may not charge the battery if the transponder is on, landing light on, and my new position lights (~3A) are on.

 

 

My Sky Arrow specifies 5 minutes as maximum time for the landing light. With I think the same charging system and a 12v 4509 incandescent, it will gradually deplete the battery in the pattern.

 

More about this in the Light Sport Expo thread, but hopefully I've solved that problem!

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Optics Guy, your battery is probably still OK. I've attached a article on Odyssey batteries which discusses the topic at hand which is "state of charge (SOC). Reading the SOC portion, it appears that the Odyssey can be discharged to a much lower SOC, as indicated here in this article (down to 10.2v.) and still recover. Also, when you connect a smart charger (i.e., your CTEK charger) to this battery, it will first go thru a diagnostic session and then show the SOC. If "yellow" the battery needs charging and if "green" the end charge is correct. I'm not an expert here but my understanding is if the charger never shows "green" you will have your answer as to whether or not your battery can be salvaged. Your comments about your usual flight mission indicates that you are using more amperage from your battery than the alternator can replenish. As Eddie says, over time, without sufficient recharging, you may be gradually lowering your battery's SOC. This appears to be the case based on your indication the SOC is now 11.7v. Recommendation: Consider buying direct replacement LED landing light Chanik recommends if you use this often.

odyssey manual.pdf

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That's why I bought the 7002 charger. You want to charge at 10% of Ah capacity, or about 7-8A if you want a good recovery.

 

Found that Odyssey manual earlier today. I think the battery can be recovered, also. I had one that was discharged to zero (master switch left on while chasing grounds) and was able to recover that to about 70%.

 

I have a 8W LED landing light.

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Opticsguy, looks like you might be the new charger guru along with Chanik :huh: Just got the LED landing light and am anxious to get this installed. The more I learn about batteries, the less I seem to know. Interesting stuff though.

 

After you install your new landing light, can you please give us an evaluation on it?

Thank you in advance.

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I'm not Runtoeat, but if it warms up enough today (10° going up to 26° is COLD for a Georgia boy!) I have a new Whelen to throw in the Sky Arrow and I plan to do a side-by-side comparo first.

 

I'll probably start a new thread on it to help keep this one on topic.

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And let me repeat an oft ignored warning.

 

Best practice is to remove the battery from the aircraft for charging.

 

I've had two auto batteries explode while on chargers - photo and damage report of one such incident to follow.

 

If this happened while in an aircraft and unattended, it could lead to major damage.

 

On the other hand, each of my motorcycles has charging leads installed and get regularly trickle charged in place - I have a 4-gang Battery Tender mounted to my garage ceiling for just such duty. And people charge batteries in situ all the time to no ill effect.

 

Still, it's best to be informed of the real risks when doing this on a regular basis.

 

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12085518205_d1693bbc71.jpg

 

(Click for a better view)

 

I had two automotive 12v batteries in series to serve as a 24v power cart for my Cirrus, kept charged with the 24v automatic charger in the photo.

 

I went to the hangar once and wondered what all the little pieces of bakelight were all over the floor.

 

Some acid had gotten on the plane, but polishing compound buffed it out. Some streaks were left on the N number. Fortunately no damage to the windows. Could have been a lot worse.

 

Some (here?) pointed out that charging batteries in series like that was asking for trouble. Not sure I buy that, since any battery is just a collection of cells regardless.

 

I had one other 12v battery on a charger blow up in a similar fashion in my garage at home. I heard that one go so I could rapidly clean the acid off the bike nearest it that got sprayed.

 

Anyway, you can imagine the mess an exploded battery could do to composite or aluminum or whatever if it happened in the plane.

 

Word to the wise, and all that.

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Wm.Ince, I'll report back on the LED lnading light. Right now, temps are forecast to be in single digits thru next week so the light installation is on "hold". I think all metal hangars multiply the temps 2X - up for hot days and down for cold.

 

Eddie, is the landing light you're replacing with the Whelen a "standard" incandescent landing light? (4 or 5"?). Curious how much current does this draw? Let us know how this works for you. For the MR16 type landing light we are replacing with LED, we go from 100 watt to 11.5 watt. Regarding the danger involved with charging batteries, your warning is well taken. My neighbor still carries scars on his face as a result of a car battery exploding while he eas connecting jumper cables. His reading glasses saved his eyesight. Charging two batteries in parallel with one charger is never recommended. I believe this is due to all batteries, even if the same manufacturer and type, have slightly different internal resistance and an automatic charger will overcharge one of them.

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Charging two batteries in parallel with one charger is never recommended.

 

Well, actually these were in series, to accept (from a 24v charger) and produce 24v from two 12v batteries. Seems like it should have been OK, because, as I said, our batteries are already several smaller batteries (cells) in series to produce the desired voltage.

 

I got out to the hangar today. My landing light was a 100w GE 4509. The size is PAR36, 4.5" according to the specs.

 

The drop-in replacement was a Whelen PLED1L, bought on sale at the Light Sport Expo for $150 from the Whelen booth. 1.2 amps per the listing here:

 

http://www.whelen.co...heus_Series.pdf

 

I decided to test them side-by-side, using my new Aerovoltz Lithium Iron battery, also bought at the show. Here's the rig:

 

12094706923_b1bd2f5c78_z.jpg

 

And the results:

 

12095071926_bde5a244a8_z.jpg

 

The iPhone kinda plays down the difference. In real life the 4509 was a lot yellower and appeared much dimmer, much more so than in the photo.

 

Interestingly, I took a light meter to the hangar and held it in each beam, but there was no measurable difference on the meter.

 

Here you can see it's a direct drop-in for the 4509:

 

12095076276_54226ede05_z.jpg

 

Incidentally, my landing light wires were not marked nor polarized in any way - I had to use a multimeter to determine which was positive, which matters on the Whelen. Hence the red and green tape.

 

Here's the new lamp in place:

 

12094423045_00a278e2d6_z.jpg

 

You can also see the Aerovoltz in place. It's so much smaller than the Odyssey that I'll have to come up with spacer blocks.

 

Best news is that it's 2.5 lbs. The Odyssey was 15.4 lbs. Even with the newly installed fire extinguisher, my empty weight went from 866.5 to 855.9. On a plane as heavy as mine, every little bit helps.

 

Negligible weight difference between the two landing lights.

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If charging on board is that much of an issue I wonder why FD included an external charging wire?

 

Excellent point.

 

I did not mean to imply that it's "...that much of an issue".

 

More a "consideration".

 

I just checked the FAA's AMT Manual (available online for free) and it seems to have no proscription against charging in place - only to follow the manufacturer's recommendations.

 

I have three motorcycles in my garage right now on my 4-gang BatteryTender, all with their batteries in place. So I do not consider it a huge deal.

 

But chargers do malfunction and, on rare occasion, batteries do leak or catch fire or explode while being charged.

 

So, keep all that in mind and make an informed decision. Most Conservative Action, and all that.

 

On my Sky Arrow, I have trickle-charged in place. I installed a flat connector to expedite it. But I only do it as needed, and in general try to do it when I'm in the hangar doing other stuff. I don't think I'd leave it charging unattended all the time as a matter of course.

 

But, as usual, That's Just Me!

 

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Eddie, great report and photos. The lithium battery and the LED light are high tech and the performance coupled with the weight saving is custom made for aircraft usage. It appears that the LED may be brighter but it also appears that there is more beam spread than the incandescent? A report back to us regarding true nite time performance would be appreciated.

 

I went online to learn more about the Aerovoltz battery. Found this interesting thread on Van's Airforce. Note the comments regarding the ceramic plate and also see the comments about the "BMS". As I've said, the more I know the less I know when it comes to batteries.

 

Aircraft Spruce comments on Van's Airforce forum:

This is all great discussion. In a general response for the customer there are several variations of Lithium Ion type batteries, there are two that are the main source of discussion in the market, Lithium Iron Phosphate (Aerovoltz Type) and the Lithium Polymer batteries that are in our cell phones and lap tops. Both are very powerful and have great properties that are a good fit for aviation but I agree with the posts that Lithium Polymers are not my first choice due to their ability to burn if they are fully shorted out.

 

Aerovoltz batteries have passed UN-DOT testing and if anyone looks that up and sees all that we went through to pass this testing they will see that we are providing a safe solution to lead acid. Aerovoltz batteries have a ceramic board in the bottom of the case where the cells have venting should they get over charged or have a dead short due to a circumstance in the aircraft. This will handle any temperature the battery cells can produce which is one of the key elements that enabled us to pass the UN-DOT testing to be safe for shipping and classified as a non-hazardous material. The lithium Iron Phosphate is the safest of lithium family and does not suffer the side effects of the polymer type batteries.

 

Cooler temperatures do affect every form of battery including lithium. However, with a slight warm up phase or usage of the battery it will come to life and provide sufficient power to start the engine as long as it was the right battery for the recommended applications. Some builders like to use just enough battery to get the job done and this fine as long as they stay above 30 F. When the engines get colder the oil gets thicker and things slow down, the same goes for a lead acid battery as well.

 

With regard to a battery management system this is a nice safeguard against damaging the battery from high and low voltage and these are available but they cost upward of 200.00 to manufacture one that will work as a start battery. We could easily install a BMS if the battery was going to just be used for electronics and not starting the engine, the pulse draw of the starter will fry any of the off the shelf BMS systems as they can handle the 300+ amp draw that is needed to start most engines.

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Thanks for that.

 

With regard to a battery management system this is a nice safeguard against damaging the battery from high and low voltage and these are available but they cost upward of 200.00 to manufacture one that will work as a start battery. We could easily install a BMS if the battery was going to just be used for electronics and not starting the engine, the pulse draw of the starter will fry any of the off the shelf BMS systems as they can handle the 300+ amp draw that is needed to start most engines.

 

What is a "battery management system"?

 

And did they mean "cannot handle" in the last sentence?

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Regarding the danger involved with charging batteries, your warning is well taken. My neighbor still carries scars on his face as a result of a car battery exploding while he eas connecting jumper cables. His reading glasses saved his eyesight. Charging two batteries in parallel with one charger is never recommended. I believe this is due to all batteries, even if the same manufacturer and type, have slightly different internal resistance and an automatic charger will overcharge one of them.

 

 

Well, actually these were in series, to accept (from a 24v charger) and produce 24v from two 12v batteries. Seems like it should have been OK, because, as I said, our batteries are already several smaller batteries (cells) in series to produce the desired voltage.

 

 

"Automatic" chargers should not be used on series batteries unless all batteries are the same make and undergone the same useage cycles. Automatic chargers cannot read the state of charge correctly on differing batteries, or those that have different cycles. It is like discharging half of the cells in one battery and trying to charge it, the cell imbalance means some cells will reach a charged state sooner than others, and will subsequently boil off and become damaged. Also, most modern automatic chargers use the "constant current" method, where the voltage will be bumped higher and higher as the batteries resist the charge, to try and maintain the same current charge rate, which leads to the battery charging faster. However, again, cell (or battery) imbalance will damage cells.

 

The best way to charge multiple lead acid batteries on the same charger is through the use of the "constant voltage" method in parallel. This will make the charge rate slow way down towards the end of the charge cycle as the battery resists charging, but it won't overcharge the batteries unless you leave them on for days, and each battery can reach their own happy state of charge state without blowing up any of the other batteries.

 

Please note, the constant voltage method only applies to batteries which increase in resistance as their state of charge increases. Lithium ion, lithium polymer, and nickel metal hydride batteries can be overcharged and explode (ESPECIALLY lithium polymer!) without any indication if they are fully charged or not, and should only be used on automatic chargers specifically designed for those batteries, in the manner prescribed by the manual. Batteries used in things like laptops usually have internal circuitry which manages the battery safely.

 

Also, multiple batteries used in a battery bank often have small "bleed off" leads to each battery in the bank to measure individual battery state of charge, and to bleed off higher charged batteries to normalize the battery bank.

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Hi Eddie.  That pretty sure that's a typo on the Aircraft Spruce quote and suspect it was meant to say "cannot".  Anticept caught a mistake on my comments.  I should have said "series" and not "parallel".  However, unless I had a charging station which monitors each battery, I still would not put a single charger on multiple batteries unless I was there to monitor them, whether parallel or series.

 

The "battery management system" is a monitoring circuit that "watches" each cell and manages the charging and discharging for each individual cell.  This prevents overheating and will shut down the battery if there are any short circuits.  From what I read, it appears that there is one of these on smartphones and computers that have Lithium batteries.  It looks like sometimes even with all of these safeguards,  this doesn't keep them from catching on fire - witness Boeing's problems with their Dreamliner batteries.

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