My First Landing on Grass

[WmInce]

Are the 2 mutually exclusive?

From AOPA http://flighttraining.aopa.org/students/maneuvers/skills/shortsofttakeoff.html

 

Soft-field objectives

 

The soft-field takeoff is the flip side of the short field. When the runway is producing excess wheel drag because it is soft, muddy, or snow-covered, we want to lighten the load on the wheels as soon as possible. It doesn't make any difference how much runway it takes or doesn't take. We're willing to accept high drag in exchange for high lift.

Unlike a short-field takeoff, we want the little wheel out of the mud immediately - no matter what the cost - because its drag plowing through the mud could be enough to make the takeoff impossible. So, the yoke is hugged to the chest (stick is forward on a taildragger) as soon as the takeoff roll is started. You can feel the prop blast hammering at the tail as it forces the little wheel into the air.

Thanks CT.

[FlyingMonkey]

Nice thing was, with full power airflow over the tail, the nose popped right up nice and high as soon as we released the brakes!  

[Doug G.]

I don't think it is appropriate to insult our CFIs. They have been very helpful on this forum.

[WmInce]

The problem with this site is nobody can post anything without all the "experts" coming out of the woodwork.

I understand that.

That is the reason I qualified my solicitation with "Sport Pilot CFI's."

[WmInce]

I was not referring to your post. It happens all the time on this site. Someone makes a comment and a few experts then chime in to parse every word.

Yep. Plenty of it.

I guess that's just one of the hallmarks of a public forum.

[Tom Baker]

Forget the CFI bullcrap.  Sometimes you encounter situations that are different than the textbook situations.  If you are taking off from a short field that is also a soft field, you would need to execute a somewhat hybrid technique.

 

IMO, if the field is short and also soft it is a recipe for trouble.

[Tom Baker]

I am a CFI.  The problem with this site is nobody can post anything without all the "experts" coming out of the woodwork.

 

I hope that wasn't dirrected towards me.

[Tom Baker]

Of course, that is common, but if it is a true soft field you won't stop on the runway. From what I have read and seen the braking and full throttle start gains little in our planes. Unloading the nose wheel is something CT flyers are supposed to do, although I suppose it would be more aggressive on a soft field. Beyond that, not much difference - staying in ground effect until speed is gained, then Vx or Vy as appropriate. (Again, with CTs the acceleration doesn't leave you needing ground effect very long.)

Any comments Tom? Any tricks for your students for soft and/or short?

I have been teaching in the CTLS since 2009. The soft field T/O is the hardest one to do. With the stick aft and just rolling onto the runway slowly apply power until the nose wheel comes off. Be ready to release some back pressure, so you don't hit the tail on the ground. I like to line up the base of the windshield with the horizon. Once you have the windshield lined up you can increase power to full. I let the airplane fly off the ground like this and continue with the climb.

 

The short field is just like a normal take off exept you hold the brakes and go to full power. I rotate at 45kts, and climb at 62kts (base of the windshield line up with the horizon). I use 15° flaps for both.

 

The CTSW is similar, but I don't remember hitting the tail as being as big of a problem like in the CTLS.

[Doug G.]

Thank you, Tom. (It makes sense that the LS would be more likely to strike the tail with a longer fuselage.)

[Tom Baker]

I found out about the tail strike with about 10 hours on my airplane. I was getting a student ready for his sport pilot practical test. There early CTLS's didn't have the tail skid like the new ones.

[Anticept]

You can modify the old tail strakes and install the teflon skid without an LOA. Dave at FDUSA can give you some guidance if you need it.

[Tom Baker]

You can modify the old tail strakes and install the teflon skid without an LOA. Dave at FDUSA can give you some guidance if you need it.

 

I was always going to do this, but have not got around to it yet.

[Anticept]

I was always going to do this, but have not got around to it yet.

 

You can put some teflon sticky tape back there in a few layers as a stopgap measure.

[Runtoeat]

We had a similar discussion a while back about rough/short field technique.  At that time, I had just started using full flap takeoff technique to reduce the time rolling on rough ground.  To do this, keep slight stick back pressure but be ready to add forward stick pressure immediately to keep the plane just slightly nose high as the speed builds.  Once in the air, forward pressure is needed to keep the CT in a level attitude a few feet off the deck until speed builds to 50kt and then raise flaps to 15.  The initial break from the ground happens very quickly at about 40kts and within just a couple hundred feet.  The 50kts also comes very quickly.  The first time I did this, the 50kts came and went because I wasn't ready for it.  The CT will pop off the ground and be airborne in the blink of an eye.  Then it's like taking an elevator up.  Since I've been doing these, I now start at 30 flaps instead of 40 so my first click up at 50kts goes from 30 to 15 to get things moving quicker due to less drag.  I originally anticipated experiencing sink when switching from 30 to 15 flaps but there is very little sink. 

[Anticept]

Doesn't matter, any increase in lift is useful during short or soft field. Additionally, ground effect negates induced drag, so in actuality the drag is skewed during rollout to an extremely low value.

 

There was a long discussion in another thread a while back where I kept arguing to use full flaps, and the counter argument was exactly that, "why isn't it in the manual then?". Finally someone decided to try it and confirmed my findings, the plane take off performance was considerably greater.

 

Full flap takeoff is a bush piloting technique, and is not standard operating procedure. Most aircraft manuals will not have that procedure. It does require more finesse and skill, because full power and full flaps do unusual things to the feel of the aircraft from the huge amount of downwash.

 

EDIT: oh, you were talking about 30 vs 40 flaps. There's not a big difference that I find between he two settings, but I still stand by what I said, every bit of extra lift helps (as long as the rollout doesn't start getting longer)!

[WmInce]

Doesn't matter, any increase in lift is useful during short or soft field. Additionally, ground effect negates induced drag, so in actuality the drag is skewed during rollout to an extremely low value.

 

There was a long discussion in another thread a while back where I kept arguing to use full flaps, and the counter argument was exactly that, "why isn't it in the manual then?". Finally someone decided to try it and confirmed my findings, the plane take off performance was considerably greater.

 

Full flap takeoff is a bush piloting technique, and is not standard operating procedure. Most aircraft manuals will not have that procedure. It does require more finesse and skill, because full power and full flaps do unusual things to the feel of the aircraft from the huge amount of downwash.

 

EDIT: oh, you were talking about 30 vs 40 flaps. There's not a big difference that I find between he two settings, but I still stand by what I said, every bit of extra lift helps (as long as the rollout doesn't start getting longer)!

 

It's not any different for a King Air either.  With full flaps, believe it or not, it will lift off in about 500 feet of runway.

My reference for that is a Flight Safety instructor pilot who has a ton of experience flying bush in the King Air.

Great airplane.

[Anticept]

The twin PT-6 is what makes that airplane. The airframe itself? Overly complicated. I hear it's fun to fly, but having first hand experience with working on one... Blahhhhhn.

[Jim Meade]

I hope that wasn't dirrected towards me.

It was directed to me and my comment that when one teaches it should be the right thing. That words matter. I've hardly read this forum and not posted at all for a couple of months. I'll crawl back under my rock and leave everyone alone.

[Ed Cesnalis]

 

When did this site morph to a right-wing racist rant instead of a site to discuss flying?

 

This was directed at me.

[FastEddieB]

Doesn't matter, any increase in lift is useful during short or soft field. !

I'm pretty much in agreement with that and the rest if your post.

 

But...

 

...I would caution that there are in some planes a combination of flaps as soft ground such that the plane will never accelerate to a speed where it can lift out of the muck. Nose too high can aggravate this, as can too much flaps. That, I think, is why POH's don't recommend it.

 

Experienced it once in a Cirrus, where in spite of 310hp, I was just not accelerating beyond a certain point, and had to lower the nose to just clear of the grass to accelerate. Used a LOT of the grass strip while figuring his out. Bear in mind, this was with only the recommended first "notch" of flaps.

 

Good idea is to always choose a landmark as a hard decision point - if you're not airborne by then, stop in the remaining runway to try again or reconsider. I nearly came to grief once in a Cessna 210 at Chalet Suzanne in FL by not doing so.

[Runtoeat]

I would encourage trial with the full flap technique to see the capability of our CT for short/rough field takeoff.  This should be done with a safety pilot onboard that has experience doing such a thing.  Start out on paved runway with little wind for a start.  Remember to stay close to the ground on initial lift-off since an engine failure during the initial lift-off would result in immediate drop of the aircraft due to the low air speed combined with high drag.  Forward pressure will be required initially but this is reduced as the flaps are retracted.  Maintain a level attitude as flaps are retracted from 30 to 15.  It all happens fast and the rise from the ground is dramatic.  My friend initiated this after getting his CTLS beat up during a takeoff where the usual "stick back with 15 flaps" short/rough field procedure was used on a rough and undulating grass field.  The full flap technique gets the airplane light on it's feet almost instantly and then off the ground in a minimum distance, while maintaining a level attitude.

[FlyingMonkey]

The video I posted where I had to get off the runway to avoid rolling off the left side was done at 30° flaps.  It came up off the runway immediately and with authority, and at slow speed.  I have no doubt that the plane will climb fine with 40° flaps.  Just be prepared for your climb out to be at a lower airspeed than you might be used to because of all the drag, until you get the flaps up.  I think I was climbing out at 56-59 knots at 30°.

[Runtoeat]

Andy, you aptly described how our CT's lift off under full flaps when you said, "with authority".  My CT lifts off without hesitation and just wants to get into the air and fly.  Really good power from the 912ULS.  Impressive performance.

[Doug G.]

Andy, I noticed your fuel shutoff is not far from the closed position.

[Doug G.]

Looking at it again, maybe it is just the camera position. Or, possibly, that the handle didn't move as far on the SW?