FastEddieB Posted May 12, 2014 Report Share Posted May 12, 2014 This may have made the rounds, but I just stumbled across it: :shock: Discuss! :wink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted May 12, 2014 Report Share Posted May 12, 2014 We've got Rickenbacker airport with it's giant runways, and I've been planning on doing some real deadstick practice, with actual engine off. Problem is, I have to do it at a time where there's no traffic, and there's almost always traffic at rickenbacker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Bozo Posted May 12, 2014 Report Share Posted May 12, 2014 Jerk!. Spin and no chutes an FAR violation, and on camera. He admits that it is a new deal landing downwind dead stick. I am surprised that the passenger didn't have a problem especially when he said OH OH a couple times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted May 12, 2014 Report Share Posted May 12, 2014 Showoff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted May 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2014 There are many time in flying where I'm 90% sure I could do something successfully. Even 99% sometimes. Or 99.9%. But that means one out of ten, one hundred or even one thousand times I will NOT be successful. Stay at the flying game long enough and these low-probability failures eventually become near certainties to rise up a bite you in the ass. In this case, a last minute truck or animal or other plane on the runway could have been a real handful to deal with. And doing this with an unsuspecting passenger borders on the criminal - IMHO, of course! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted May 12, 2014 Report Share Posted May 12, 2014 It goes back to asking yourself "would I like to have to explain this at a NTSB hearing". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted May 12, 2014 Report Share Posted May 12, 2014 I haven't done a dead stick landing with my Aeronca Champ, but I've done 15-20 with the CTSW, several with a knowing pilot passenger. There is no doubt in my mind I could do one with my Champ. As to restarting in the air, I've restarted the CTSW on the electric starter half a dozen or more times, at least once when the airplane had been gliding long enough that the oil was under 120°F. As these have all been practice, all but one (the cold one) were right over an airport. On the other hand, restarting my 65 hp 7AC, just like the plane in the video it has no electric, would involve getting the prop to windmilling, which would probably be pretty close to Vne. I have not started the CTSW by windmilling. Haven't started any airplane that way. It is certainly possible to start the 65 hp Continental in the air, as shown in this photo. However, the door configuration on my Champ would preclude getting out of the cockpit as this J3 occupant did. (There is an STC to fly the Champ with the door off, though, so maybe it's in the future. Parachutes? I didn't see any evidence that the occupants weren't wearing parachutes. I'm not sure what parachute configuration the L16 (wartime brother of the 7AC) used but it could have been seat packs. That wasn't much of a spin, although I guess the FAA would call it technically a spin as it involved a stall with yaw. Downwind? Not much wind at all that was evident, and on grass the roll-out and stopping would have been pretty gentle. Faster touch-down speed? You guys like to land at 10 kias over book, anyway, why would it bother you? You guys ought to relax a little. Let's see if I can embed a photo http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t258/wacojoe/CubStarter.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted May 12, 2014 Report Share Posted May 12, 2014 Parachutes? I didn't see any evidence that the occupants weren't wearing parachutes. I'm not sure what parachute configuration the L16 (wartime brother of the 7AC) used but it could have been seat packs. That wasn't much of a spin, although I guess the FAA would call it technically a spin as it involved a stall with yaw. I don't know if that would qualify, since it looked like a full turn, but incipient, not fully developed spins don't require parachutes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted May 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2014 A bit of a hijack, but this is what the law says: © Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds— (1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or (2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the horizon. (d) Paragraph © of this section does not apply to— (1) Flight tests for pilot certification or rating; or (2) Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by— (i) A certificated flight instructor... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted May 12, 2014 Report Share Posted May 12, 2014 I have shut the engine off in a Taylorcraft with a 65 Continental and no starter. It takes about 125 mph and 1000 feet to get it restarted. I always have done this over an airport with the restart being done high enough to provide room to plan for a dead stick landing if it didn't start. I have never had to make a dead stick landing. I will say that there are things I wouldn't do now that I would have done when I was younger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted May 12, 2014 Report Share Posted May 12, 2014 A bit of a hijack, but this is what the law says: © Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds— (1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or (2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the horizon. (d) Paragraph © of this section does not apply to— (1) Flight tests for pilot certification or rating; or (2) Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by— (i) A certificated flight instructor... Hmm...even an incipient spin might fall under the pitch limitations, then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted May 12, 2014 Report Share Posted May 12, 2014 For some reason it is not letting me quote a post, but to Eddie's posting of the regulations. From the short video clip we do not know the intended purpose of the flight, but I would consider it highly suspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josjonkers Posted May 12, 2014 Report Share Posted May 12, 2014 There are many time in flying where I'm 90% sure I could do something successfully. Even 99% sometimes. Or 99.9%. But that means one out of ten, one hundred or even one thousand times I will NOT be successful. Stay at the flying game long enough and these low-probability failures eventually become near certainties to rise up a bite you in the ass. In this case, a last minute truck or animal or other plane on the runway could have been a real handful to deal with. And doing this with an unsuspecting passenger borders on the criminal - IMHO, of course! Gee Eddy, I guess glider pilots are all criminals! A bit of balance please! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SportCruiser Posted May 12, 2014 Report Share Posted May 12, 2014 Either way turning off a good running engine makes no sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted May 12, 2014 Report Share Posted May 12, 2014 Either way turning off a good running engine makes no sense There was a time when I didn't have the judgement to set up for a dead stick. After an engine out I landed on a steep slope and bent my gear. After that I started by turning off a good running engine on final after the runway was assured. Then I tried base and then downwind and then from above the pattern and eventually from miles out. I don't think I'll blow another one because I have learned to under-estimate my glide and then slip or even s-turn as needed. I have also learned how to handle a balloon when flaring. In an emergency I find that instead of rising to the occasion I tend to sink to my level training. I cut power on normal landings a-beam the numbers and practice for the engine out on almost every landing too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted May 12, 2014 Report Share Posted May 12, 2014 Sitting on top of a mountain in the middle of nowhere typing this and nothing, but beautiful tress and more mountains. This was a hot topic on the old CT forum and it was recently a hot topic on the Sportpilot forum. For me personally you can't make a informed decision unless you have done a few. We an always say things carry risk. Glider pilot, skydiver, scuba diver, base jumper, rock climbing and the list is as long as anyone's arm. Until you have lived in the other guys shoes and TRAINED as they have you gruel have no idea. Ed and I came from similar backgrounds where real engine outs were a little more common place. Most GA pilots have never done real engine outs. Glider pilots do it all the time. I have done many in the CT and it is quite easy. Better to practice and learn under controlled and predictable settings than to have the real thing happen and find out you panick or mis-judge things so bad your in trouble. For people that have never done them it seems foolish and may put many in panic mode which stops all logical thinking and panic kills. Do it enough times and it becomes come place, easy and fun. All the people that would call people like Ed and I careless and reckless have never done them. People who have practiced call them a good job. Training is everything. Hiding your head in the sand and pretending it can never happen is careless and reckless because it is now has unpredictability and variables you know nothing about and now you have placed you and possibly a passengers life at risk for something you could have done before without the panic and relying on well developed training. Fear keeps people from proper training in many fields and training is furthering education and removes panic which kills from the equation. If you think dead sticks are dangerous ask yourself this. When an engine dies in an aircraft who do you want flying it so save your life? The guy that has practiced a bunch of dead sticks or the guy who was afraid to ever do one? I ran into burning buildings and hazardous sitituations most of my life when others were running away. How do high risk people keep from harm. TRAINING. Yes sometimes that still doesn't work out as planned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S3flyer Posted May 12, 2014 Report Share Posted May 12, 2014 Roger -- I know our Rotax 912's at idle provide a good bit of thrust but how much difference does this actually make in glide ratio versus a stopped engine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted May 12, 2014 Report Share Posted May 12, 2014 It has more to do with mental training and awareness. You already proved and practiced landings. What breeds fear or people to think the other guy is careless and reckless? Lack of training, fear of the unknown and lack of self confidence. Train the way you play and all three of those disappear. If you turn off the engine will you have a different view? If it wasn't different then why aren't more people doing it. Some things aren't as much about the physical training as the mental one. I have taken a lot of gun ho people out with me over the years to do some of my crazy activities. They are pumped to start. Once we get started fear and panic block all intelligent and logical thought. Now they are in true danger and need to be removed from the situation. Your passenger or loved one is counting on you. It's my job to to be the best I can in all my endeavors to keep them from getting hurt and sometimes recognizing panic and fear early in partners is life saving in itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Bozo Posted May 13, 2014 Report Share Posted May 13, 2014 The conversation in the cockpit tells me that the passenger was on the flight for the purpose of taking videos of a spin and got an extra measure of “thrill” when the pilot turned off the engine with no hope of a restart!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer Posted May 13, 2014 Report Share Posted May 13, 2014 Engine out traiiing has an practial application in extending glide. Standard practice in our cessna 150 was slow near stall, pull mixture, engine stops. Then pull up as required to stop prop from windmilling. Lower nose to best gulide for your weight. This takes a calculation of where you are trying to glide to. Tailwind, slower seed to extend time in air, etc. The windmilling prop takes away from your glide capability. Longest glide was about 12 minutes, from 14,100 feet to sea level in 1980. On restart, key or point down, plan at least 1100 feet loss. Takes about 130 MPH to jump start a 150, one blade, then another, and then she starts. No shock cooling was never an issue, however training is learning. Never tried to restart the CTLS by pointing down as gearing might make that impossible, maybe someone will know? Farmer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted May 13, 2014 Report Share Posted May 13, 2014 Practicing engine outs is just another tool. There are physical tools and mental tools. So long as you never need it you're probably okay. If the need arises and it has for many a pilot then having that mental calmness tha comes from training is just the right tool for the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howardnmn Posted May 14, 2014 Report Share Posted May 14, 2014 Pilot and Pax/Cinematographer had same surname. Father/son? Grandson? IMHO Drama was a setup: "uh oh, uh, oh" and "never done this before". Also, looks like he's landing in his own field and probably knows where his cows are I would bet -- given 15,000 ft -- the wings would fall off before a 912uls would windmill-start Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krohmie Posted June 16, 2014 Report Share Posted June 16, 2014 Roger -- I know our Rotax 912's at idle provide a good bit of thrust but how much difference does this actually make in glide ratio versus a stopped engine? Glide is better with the prop standing, than with the engine at idle and the prop windmilling. Most people (me including) tend to land long with the prop standing, and I exercised this many times on the touring motorglider (G109B9 I flew before the CT. For me this video shows how this is done, with reserve in altitude (hence the slip in short final)! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 Krohmie, The link takes one to your site, but the video in question isn't obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krohmie Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 My reference was to the video at the beginning of this thread. There are no videos on my aviation-photography website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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