Roger Lee Posted March 27, 2015 Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 Back in 2006 - 2007 there was an 8 month wait. They sold 85 and 83 in these respective years. That's a build rate of 7 per month. They were a little less complicated back then, but us Americans wanted more. More build time more final cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted March 27, 2015 Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 Total nonsense. Ah you've spotted that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted March 27, 2015 Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 Back in 2006 - 2007 there was an 8 month wait. They sold 85 and 83 in these respective years. That's a build rate of 7 per month. They were a little less complicated back then, but us Americans wanted more. More build time more final cost. In that time frame you could buy out of stock. JD rented the hangar next to Gary Anas in Minden and packed it full of CTs without wings. I remember dozens of them and I think I heard $2M as a cost for that inventory. It might have had a lot to do with setting up the dealer in Salinas who was going to be big time but of course wasn't. I think Flight Design West got stuck with a lot of planes for a while. Prior to that I bought mine out of stock and there were a few to choose from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbigs Posted March 27, 2015 Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 Back in 2006 - 2007 there was an 8 month wait. They sold 85 and 83 in these respective years. That's a build rate of 7 per month. They were a little less complicated back then, but us Americans wanted more. More build time more final cost. That was long before they embarked on a tough project to produce a certified 4-seater. And expand to a worldwide manufacturing operation. For those not able or willing to wait for these product, have fun. You will not find better at these price points. And you will spend years fighting with others over warranty issues. FD is a fantastic company and they stand behind their products and customers. And I don't even get paid to say this....I came from the tech manufacturing world. And know quality when i see it.... By the way, the only other LSA that sells more is the Carbon Cub. A totally different niche. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug G. Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 Carbon Cub sells more in the US. BTW burgers, I hope you can get rid of your lousy used plane when the time comes... The one that had all those problems when you bought it, remember? Nonsense indeed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorJohn Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 This guy has never flown or owned any other plane than his little CTLSi. He is so bigoted against anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 For the record, nobody is saying FD is not a great company. Most of us feel that way, including me. We are talking about the industry in general, and the wisdom of paying a company up front in an industry with so many delivery issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishAl Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 BTW burgers, I hope you can get rid of your lousy used plane This guy ........is so bigoted ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorJohn Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 Don't imply something that wasn't said. big·ot·ed ˈbiɡədəd/ adjective having or revealing an obstinate belief in the superiority of one's own opinions and a prejudiced intolerance of the opinions of others. "a bigoted group of reactionaries" synonyms: prejudiced, biased, partial, one-sided, sectarian, discriminatory; More Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N89WD Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 Just have to chime in and say....DRAMA....you guys crack me up. Happy Trails! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 Rotax has plenty of engines. They produce around 4500 a year. I know for a fact they have plenty of engines. This is an FD issue in Europe or your dealer issue. My bet is on your dealer. Aircraft are coming into the U.S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DECZR Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 Gentleman, the problem is not one year wait, even I;m waiting for almost 2 years. The problem is the attitude of FD: you don't really know WHEN the plane will be delivery. From 31.03 the delivery term was pushed on 31.05. That is! Why to believe this new term of delivery? It should be 31.05 next year, why not?! Beyond my suspicious regarding the financial capability of the company it rises the question about organization. Any manufacturer has a production schedule, for supply with raw materials and delivery date or FD seems to be a drift boat, without a helmsman. Unfortunately, the market will react in a very bad way regarding next orders, maybe they hope in a lot of orders for C4 but who knows when this type of plane will be deliver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishAl Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 Don't imply something that wasn't said. big·ot·ed ˈbiɡədəd/ adjective having or revealing an obstinate belief in the superiority of one's own opinions and a prejudiced intolerance of the opinions of others. "a bigoted group of reactionaries" synonyms: prejudiced, biased, partial, one-sided, sectarian, discriminatory; More Point accepted. (The word has a slightly different connotation here.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 Point accepted. (The word has a slightly different connotation here.) Same meaning though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorJohn Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 It can mean a racial prejudice that may also apply, but that wasn't the point of my post. That would be "off topic." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Top Cat Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 For the record, nobody is saying FD is not a great company. Most of us feel that way, including me. We are talking about the industry in general, and the wisdom of paying a company up front in an industry with so many delivery issues. FWIW... I ordered my RV-12 SLSA near the end of March 2014 with a July 18th 2014 delivery date. Basically about 6 weeks. I paid Vans a $5k deposit and the rest on delivery. I took ownership on the 18th of July 2014, as promised, complete with 912ULS engine and flew it home. From OR to SC it flew perfectly. The only issues I've had with the plane have been related to the latest Dynon update, now resolved. The other issue has been with the carb float problems on the 912ULS. Yesterday I received 4 of the NEW redesigned floats from Lockwood so that issue is also resolved. All in all, it's been a great buying experience. Not all companies have problems but I really do feel for those posting here with major delivery delays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorJohn Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 Vans is doing it right. I wish I had $123,000 to spend on one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbigs Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 An RV-12 is not a Flight Design CTLSi. The RV is a metal and rivet old-tech design with the older 912ULS carb'd engine. The RV has a 20 gallon tank (FD has 34/35) and at the 7gph burn rate of the 912ULS thats a range of about 600nm half the FD. The FD also has a 3.5 gph burn at cruise. The RV has mechanical mags, choke, mixture and carb heat manual op. The FD has full electronic ignition, FADEC/ECU and fuel injection single lever op. The RV has a 50lbs luggage area (FD has 110lbs luggage area). The RV needs twice the runway length for takeoff and landings. The RV has a 900fpm climb, the FD is 1400fpm. The RV cabin width is just 43 inches, very tight...the FD has a 49 inch cabin. The RV max cruise at 5500 rpm is 113kts slower than the FD at 120kts. The RV is a low wing with a bubble canopy, a sun baker. But worst of all? The RV has no BRS chute! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorJohn Posted March 29, 2015 Report Share Posted March 29, 2015 I would much prefer an RV12 over any Flight Design LSA built. I think the FD looks like a cartoon character. It doesn't appeal to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted March 29, 2015 Report Share Posted March 29, 2015 DoctorJohn, you just unintentionally insulted everyone's FD plane on this forum. That's kindof mean :/I do rather like the look of my CTLS. And she has a lot of sentimental value to me. I know FD's design doesn't appeal to everyone, but don't be like that other guy and play his game... Please We asked him to stop before and he just carries on; at this point anything he says has no value to me. It's sad how much he tries to get approval from us and then spits in our face with the holier than thou attitude, so don't let him get to you.Anyways, as for delivery problems: i've heard from a reliable source that a lot of the problems with delivery is raw material availability and FD's rapid growth. I don't agree with their methods of "no explanations" and I have voiced them, just a simple "still waiting on materials" would probably go a long way, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted March 29, 2015 Report Share Posted March 29, 2015 I work on RV12's and talk to their owners and on their website. They aren't without their own problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Top Cat Posted March 29, 2015 Report Share Posted March 29, 2015 An RV-12 is not a Flight Design CTLSi. The RV is a metal and rivet old-tech design with the older 912ULS carb'd engine. The RV has a 20 gallon tank (FD has 34/35) and at the 7gph burn rate of the 912ULS thats a range of about 600nm half the FD. The FD also has a 3.5 gph burn at cruise. The RV has mechanical mags, choke, mixture and carb heat manual op. The FD has full electronic ignition, FADEC/ECU and fuel injection single lever op. The RV has a 50lbs luggage area (FD has 110lbs luggage area). The RV needs twice the runway length for takeoff and landings. The RV has a 900fpm climb, the FD is 1400fpm. The RV cabin width is just 43 inches, very tight...the FD has a 49 inch cabin. The RV max cruise at 5500 rpm is 113kts slower than the FD at 120kts. The RV is a low wing with a bubble canopy, a sun baker. But worst of all? The RV has no BRS chute! I'm not going to get into a pee-ing contest with you as it's …well, pointless. FD make good planes and I've flown the CTLS, with a 912ULS engine and Skyview. I did't like it well enough to buy one . The point I was answering, and which you missed (because you jumped at the chance to recite the brochure, as usual) was that not ALL manufacturers have delivery problems. I ordered my RV-12 SLSA with a delivery date six weeks later. To correct a few points:- Yes I have the 912ULS. It has carbs and runs exceptionally well. The floats have been annoying but it's resolved. Old tech? I don't think so but anyway it's flying whilst others are waiting months/years for an FD which is a shame. The RV came with Skyview Touch, a/p, ADSB etc which is more than enough for the sport flying I plan on doing. It's all metal, which is what I wanted. The CTLS I flew was grounded with 2 cracks in the composite around the baggage door. It doesn't have mechanical mixture or carb heat controls, but it does have a mechanical choke and cabin heat….which work just fine. It has a single power lever too, imagine that! It has 50lbs of baggage and I can put 2 passengers and full fuel and be slightly under max gross, with enough baggage to fly across the USA (which I did!) More baggage weight, and fuel weight is fine…IF you can take it ALL and carry 2 200-210lb people? Fuel burn just plain is NOT 7gph…I plan on 4.8gph and burning 93 non-ethanol and have been getting 4.5gph to 4.8 gph at 5300 rpm. You need to check your math if you use 7gph on a 20gal tank and expect 600nm!! At 5300 rpm I plan on, and GET, 120-123KTAS and 3-3.25 hours. A few seconds after I've applied full power I've reached rotate speed and can climb above pattern altitude (1500') at the far end of a 5000' runway with a notch of flap. Very short distance, as with landing. Performance is great thank you. The cabin just plain isn't tight, for me, even with a passenger. The bubble canopy is warmer than a high wing but I taxi with the canopy propped open a few inches and enjoy the breeze…and the visibility is far greater than in the CTLS I flew. I stooped to see out sideways in the CTLS, I found the C-162 better in this regard. I like the RV-12's great all around view as well as being able to see down in front on the wing. My preference. I picked up the plane in OR in JULY and flew back through CA, AZ, NM, TX and the southern states in a 100F+ temps and enjoyed it, without any problems thank you! I also prefer the toe brakes in the RV than the lever in the FD. The BRS is a possible option if the plane can accommodate the weight but it certainly isn't the first thing I'd look for in a new airplane.You are obviously different as you appear to wring your hands over it all the time. I was close to buying a Tecnam P2008. Lovely plane with both composite and metal. 912is engine. Lovely well made plane. Trouble was it was very heavy and this was without the chute option. No way to carry 2 people and bags without reducing the fuel load greatly. The turbo engine version was even worse. On my own I could fill up with 30+ galls and fly for hours but I wouldn't so it didn't make sense for me. Also the engine required an upgrade and down-time and in the end I didn't think it, or the P2008, was worth it. The extra cost and weight wasn't worth the improved fuel burn, for ME. The discussion was about aircraft deliveries and delays. My experience with Vans is contrary to the experiences of some FD buyers here and that's got to be hugely disappointing and frustrating. However, I made sure NOT to take a pop at FD airplanes (as you did with the RV) but that's fine if you like to jump to being childish and small. For ME, one reason I chose the RV over a European manufacturer was that it's made in the USA with US support. Having talked to owners of Remos, Tecnam, and yes…FD…I made MY choice. You can have your opinion, but if you're going to spout facts then at least get them right. You seem rather anxious about your choice of airplane and always seem to be in a rush to quote your brochure and then talk about your NEXT plane. Which is odd. You're right about one thing. The RV-12 is NOT a CTLSi. That's precisely why I chose it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Top Cat Posted March 29, 2015 Report Share Posted March 29, 2015 I work on RV12's and talk to their owners and on their website. They aren't without their own problems. Roger, you're right. Don't all airplanes have their idiosyncrasies and problems? My point was that the buying experience of my RV12 was very good and that not ALL manufacturers suffer prolonged delays causing their customers great frustration. That's all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted March 29, 2015 Report Share Posted March 29, 2015 It certainly helps that they are located and built in the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbigs Posted March 29, 2015 Report Share Posted March 29, 2015 It certainly helps that they are located and built in the US. And that they are not trying to build a certified 4-seater. And don't have Russia trying to surround their factory. For those that want the best, waiting is just part of the price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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