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Lawsuit is over!


CT4ME

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The wacky lawsuit brought against FD by Daniel Bernath is OVER.  Not only did he request a dismissal (with the ability for it to be filed again), but the courts dismissed the suit (not allowing it to be filed again).  This was a horrible experience for all, and a big waste of time and $$$.  

"No man is completely useless; he can always serve as a bad example."  Our lesson: don't forget we have dual gravity-fed fuel tanks.  The feeds will never be exactly even.  If one side gets very low... land the plane.  Never take off with very low fuel.

I can't wait to see the final accident report.

Tim

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Speaking of forced landings... Sport Aviation (june 2014) has a good article about fuel issues that have led to off-field landings.  I was surprised to learn that the Cessna 210 doesn't allow slips of more than 30 seconds while landing with less than 1/2 tank!  The unporting of fuel can cause fuel starvation.

Tim

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  • 3 months later...

To the fuel starvation issue, I believe there must be an underlying problem with the CTSW Fuel System. I have personally experienced loss of power with fuel in both tanks.

The last event happened Just today after filling the CT. What I observed was a loss of engine power at Full Climb Power. Fuel pressure went to -1.6 psi The engine was stumbling. I reduced power to 4800 RPM and the engine and fuel pressures / flow slowly returned to normal. 

The previous Events occurred in flight with greater than 8 Gallons per side. I am new to the CTSW and wonder if this is understood to be an issue in the community? 

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mooneyman: We found debris in our fuel system in the Y, and lost engine power three times in flight on my CTLS one day. We had been seeing some periodic fuel PSI issues, and were already chasing the issue down when that occurred.

 

In addition, the fuel pumps have an internal screen that cannot be cleaned; it requires the pump to be replaced.

 

Be sure you have eliminated fuel issues and all screens are clean before thinking about the aircraft fuel system design itself having a problem. In the maintenance manuals, they have a fuel flow test procedure that is used to identify if there are fuel system problems. A healthy fuel system has no problem passing this test.

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There isn't any issue with the CT's fuel system. You have a problem other than fuel coming down out of the tanks. You can't just guess at these types of issues. You need to put a mechanical gauge inline (10 psi gauge max) and do some test. You may have a bad pump or you may have garbage in the fuel system that doesn't show up until the angle of the aircraft changes or fuel demand becomes too high to be supplied. I have run the CT without a pump with only the fuel lines connected together with a tube. It ran fine up to full rpm for as long as I wanted. It will cough and gag at about 5000 rpm if the pump is left inline, but disconnected from the engine. They fail open, but there is some reduction in flow. What fuel pump is on this engine? Was the drop in pressure after a hot engine sat a while then started again? When was the fuel filter in the instrument panel checked last?

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Speaking of forced landings... Sport Aviation (june 2014) has a good article about fuel issues that have led to off-field landings.  I was surprised to learn that the Cessna 210 doesn't allow slips of more than 30 seconds while landing with less than 1/2 tank!  The unporting of fuel can cause fuel starvation.

Tim

Where did you see this? I flew a T210M for over a year - more than 200 hours on it - and have a C210M manual at hand. Neither one has this limitation in them. I was checked out by an expert 210 owner-flyer of many years who has been in most 210 models and he said nothing like this. Maybe some other model of 210?

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You can un-port fuel in a number of planes. All it takes is a flat tank design and a slight out of co-ordination flight. It isn't unique to a CT.

 

It's like a car. You know the engine will quit when the fuel runs out so you don't do it. You know it will hurt if you run head on into an immovable object. So you don't do that either.

 

That said there is the Darwin club that does those things anyway. So I guess it becomes a choice. 

 

If you know you can un-port fuel then don't do it. If you see you are doing it then correct it. It isn't like you can't see it.

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In the aforementioned issue of Sport Aviation - June 2014.  Article about forced landings.  Something about an AD requiring a placard about the fuel unporting issue.

http://www.sportaviationonline.org/sportaviation/june_2014#pg82 

That was a 1960 210,the first year built, when they still had struts and were more like a super 182 than the later 210 that I flew. The one I flew did not have this AD or placard. The manual on mine simple said take off and land on the fuller tank (of the two). 210's with aux tanks added may have had other instructions, I can't speak to them.
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What is the deal with people using all these different names. What do they have to hide by doing so? It isn't just 100Hamburgers, there are others besides him in this post that have had or use different names on the forum.

The thing that disappoints me is when forum administrator personnel who purport to be expert in some field such as maintenance don't use their real name. This forum is one of the worst for trying to obfuscate who is in management. It hurts the credibility of the site.

There is too much "believe me because I said so" and too little "here is the specific person or reference, feel welcome to verify the information".

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This is a free online forum. You don't even have to own or have any flying experience in a FD CT to comment on the CT Flier site! Advise given anonymous or with real name is buyer beware...no implied warranty or workmanship guarantee. Not even a quality assurance check.

Here is what I know of 100Hamburgers. He has been flying for a shorter time than I have (I am going on three years), he is not an aircraft mechanic of any sort. (I am an LSRM-A, but far from an expert), he is not any sort of instructor (me either).

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There is too much "believe me because I said so" and too little "here is the specific person or reference, feel welcome to verify the information".

 

This is true. Best practice is if there's no reference, heed it with reservation. I've been guilty of passing off a few "he said she saids" myself :(.

 

References are hard to come by though, as often said references require you to contact manufacturers, or purchase instruction manuals/videos. The post I had about oil was what I learned from an instructional video provided by AeroShell, and it has to be purchased (i tried finding a youtube copy, but no-go).

 

I'd also argue that often, anecdotes are the precursor to procedure development. We have to watch for consistencies in trouble reports. Don't outright ignore comments made by people, but be careful when they act as an authority!

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Several of the last posts in this thread have been deleted.  They had nothing to do with the topic and had degraded to a series of personal attacks.  Please limit your discussions about individuals to Private Messages between yourselves.  If you really don't like someone's ideas, then put them on "ignore".

 

The quality of users' posts become evident over time.  There is no entrance exam that qualifies people to opine.  Learn from the posts, but check the validity to the level that makes you comfortable.  It would be nice if every post contained cross-refs and quoted paragraph and page from a manual, but that is not always possible.  If you question a post, Google some of the words and see if you can confirm/deny the information elsewhere.  Many of you spend a lot of time learning and contributing to this forum.  Thank you. 

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Personal attacks are the last refuge of cowards. I have not been banned, nor have I engaged in personal attacks like this... You sir, should be taken off the site for this immature and unprofessional commentary.

What is personal? And, how is it an attack? I simply said you have had your license for a short time, are not an aircraft mechanic or an instructor. Is any of that not factual?
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Burgers, I have modified the post to take anything that might be seen as personal out. My apologies. (No, it was not at the request of the admin.)

I would, however, request that you refrain from assuming that your way is the only way especially when the situation discussed is not your own.

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I believe that when a person comments on technical matters, or most others, it is important to know what their expertise is and what qualifies them to make the comment. When you say that I don't understand the situation at my own airport in reference to storing fuel you have absolutely no basis for the comment.

I am sorry that you feel your lack of experience is a negative - I see mine as showing the possibilities I have to learn from others.

I own a CTLS and have done my own work on it for more than two years with help from people on this forum. That is not a resume, it is a fact. It does however mean that if we talk about specifics about the things on the FD and Rotax inspection checklists the odds are quite high that I will be more familiar with them than you. Experience counts, not just opinion. There are a lot of very experienced people on this forum. You and I are pretty low on the list.

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  • 6 months later...

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