Question - Class B (and C) airliners

[Dan Kent]

Hey Dan,

 

I'd advise using flight following especially if you're on the west side of Houston below the Class B and near the east-west I-10 VFR corridor.  It gets really busy over there especially under the Class B, and I wouldn't trust that you're going to see everyone even with  ADS-B. 

Andy,

Shortly after I got my ticket and brought my plane down to the Houston area, I went out with the CFI that I took some lessons with here in Houston and we did exactly what you suggested, althought the controller made a mistake (in my opinion).  I didn't realize it until the next day.  We were on FF below the Class B ceiling over I-10.  The controller then told us to go to 2500 feet (2000' shelf), but never cleared us into the Class B.  I guess the clearance was implied, but when I asked the CFI he said yes he should have cleared us into the Class B, prior to the increase in altitude.

 

So I agree with you, I would use it if I fly through that area.

 

In theory, I am supposed to see everything on ADS-B that a controller sees on their radar, so unless my system is faulty, I should get the same information.  Or course there is theory and real world.

[FlyingMonkey]

Altitude is definitely a factor. Flying to Sebring at 5500 I had no trouble with radio contact. On the way back I was mostly around 2000-2500 feet, and there were large stretches where I could not hear the controllers.

 

Also, FF ( or ADS-B ) does not relieve the responsibility to see and avoid. I saw three aircraft within one mile at approximately the same altitude while on FF that were never called out to me, and one of them required me to maneuver to avoid at very close range, I would say less than 1/4 mile, maybe 1/8 or less.

[Doug G.]

I believe MOAs are always "see and avoid" but it is good to contact the controlling agency to know if they are active.

[Doug G.]

Of course, my point is there is no difference in an MOA, but it is nice to know if there are F-16s around - or not.

[Dan Kent]

Altitude is definitely a factor. Flying to Sebring at 5500 I had no trouble with radio contact. On the way back I was mostly around 2000-2500 feet, and there were large stretches where I could not hear the controllers.

Also, FF ( or ADS-B ) does not relieve the responsibility to see and avoid. I saw three aircraft within one mile at approximately the same altitude while on FF that were never called out to me, and one of them required me to maneuver to avoid at very close range, I would say less than 1/4 mile, maybe 1/8 or less.

Andy,

You kind of made my point (at least to me). One of the primary services is traffic alerts, yet you didn't receive them for your 2 close encounters.

 

Also, going long stretches without hearing the controllers would drive me nuts - how do I know when to change frequencies, what frequency??? How did you know you weren't going to out fly your coverage, and be flying in the "system" but unable to talk to someone? At some point would one need to do a 180 to re-establish radio contact?

[FlyingMonkey]

Andy,

You kind of made my point (at least to me). One of the primary services is traffic alerts, yet you didn't receive them for your 2 close encounters.

 

Also, going long stretches without hearing the controllers would drive me nuts - how do I know when to change frequencies, what frequency??? How did you know you weren't going to out fly your coverage, and be flying in the "system" but unable to talk to someone? At some point would one need to do a 180 to re-establish radio contact?

 

Your first point is well taken...BUT...on the way down to Sebring, 20min after getting on FF they called out traffic 10 o'clock, one mile, same altitude.  I looked left and saw a dot with very little left/right movement, which usually indicates an intercept course.  I went full power and started climbing, and a little low wing experimental passed almost directly below me about 500-700 feet below my altitude.  If FF had not called that out I almost certainly would have never seen him, and then the pass would have been VERY close if not a hit.  As it was it was close enough I told the controller that we probably looked insanely close on radar, but traffic was no longer a factor.  He was glad to hear it.

 

I view it as an extra set of eyes in the cockpit.  Will it see everything?  Certainly not.  Will it see more than I get by myself?  Certainly yes.

 

At first being out of contact while on FF was annoying, but then I realized I have a squawk code, and as long as I keep squawking people in ATC will know who I am and where I'm going, even if we can't raise each other by radio.  So I just kept my code and occasionally would try to contact ATC using frequencies published for nearby airports.  Once into south Georgia I never got ATC back, and when I was about 15 miles from my destination I made a call in the blind on the freq I thought I should be on to cancel FF, then set squawk to 1200.  Not sure what else I could do, and I figured they had seen this enough before to know what had happened.

[Andy]

Hey Dan,

 

I had the same thing happen (controller give me a vector and an altitude) into the Dallas Class B without formerly giving me the clearance.  It took me a minute to get his attention but I made a direct query about the clearance and forced him to utter the words.  Note sure why your CFI didn't do that or have you do it.

 

Not the first time I've either caught a controller mistake or we've gotten our signals crossed about what was happening.  We're both human, and it's up to me to make sure I've covered my tail from a safety and a regulatory standpoint.  Controllers are a great assist, but...like pilots..they ain't perfect. It's my butt and my ticket.  Only I can protect both (or screw them into the ground...depending on what I do).

[FastEddieB]

I've had trouble getting "the words" as I zero'd in on Tampa's Class B.

 

Personally, until I have "the words" I'll keep angling away, ultimately avoiding the Class B until I hear them.

 

Now, as a Light Sport pilot, unless going to or coming from an airport in the Class B I'll generally just stay beneath the floor and monitor the appropriate approach frequency.

[Dan Kent]

Your first point is well taken...BUT...on the way down to Sebring, 20min after getting on FF they called out traffic 10 o'clock, one mile, same altitude.  I looked left and saw a dot with very little left/right movement, which usually indicates an intercept course.  I went full power and started climbing, and a little low wing experimental passed almost directly below me about 500-700 feet below my altitude.  If FF had not called that out I almost certainly would have never seen him, and then the pass would have been VERY close if not a hit.  As it was it was close enough I told the controller that we probably looked insanely close on radar, but traffic was no longer a factor.  He was glad to hear it.

 

I view it as an extra set of eyes in the cockpit.  Will it see everything?  Certainly not.  Will it see more than I get by myself?  Certainly yes.

 

At first being out of contact while on FF was annoying, but then I realized I have a squawk code, and as long as I keep squawking people in ATC will know who I am and where I'm going, even if we can't raise each other by radio.  So I just kept my code and occasionally would try to contact ATC using frequencies published for nearby airports.  Once into south Georgia I never got ATC back, and when I was about 15 miles from my destination I made a call in the blind on the freq I thought I should be on to cancel FF, then set squawk to 1200.  Not sure what else I could do, and I figured they had seen this enough before to know what had happened.

Thanks Andy.

[Mike Koerner]

I took a friend from the Czech Republic on a flight around LA the other day.

I don’t use flight following (SoCal Approach) often for the reasons best explained by Jim Meade; it invites a lot of extra maneuvering. Also, I was verbally abused on one occasion and on another I had a twin, which was never called out, making multiple pylon turns around me.

Anyway, on this particular flight we flew just outside one of the rings of the LAX class bravo (which are not actually rings at all, by the way), and just below the floor of another. My iFly GPS makes it possible to do this quite accurately. We flew around the buildings downtown and then returned to Torrance by the same route, low enough that cruising altitudes do not apply.

When I contacted Torrance ground after landing they asked if I had been flying 100 feet below class bravo. I said I had. Torrance ground said that ATC had requested that I stay 500 below class bravo in the future. They said it was not a violation, but that it would make it easier for them to route traffic through the class bravo airspace.

I said I would comply.

Mike Koerner

[FlyingMonkey]

That's interesting Mike...outside the Bravo is outside...they just unofficially increased their airspace size by 500 feet!  That might not make much difference under a 60/125 shelf, but it starts to be quite a burden under a 25/125 shelf, especially if there are tall buildings and towers in that area. 

[Anticept]

I took a friend from the Czech Republic on a flight around LA the other day.

I don’t use flight following (SoCal Approach) often for the reasons best explained by Jim Meade; it invites a lot of extra maneuvering. Also, I was verbally abused on one occasion and on another I had a twin, which was never called out, making multiple pylon turns around me.

Anyway, on this particular flight we flew just outside one of the rings of the LAX class bravo (which are not actually rings at all, by the way), and just below the floor of another. My iFly GPS makes it possible to do this quite accurately. We flew around the buildings downtown and then returned to Torrance by the same route, low enough that cruising altitudes do not apply.

When I contacted Torrance ground after landing they asked if I had been flying 100 feet below class bravo. I said I had. Torrance ground said that ATC had requested that I stay 500 below class bravo in the future. They said it was not a violation, but that it would make it easier for them to route traffic through the class bravo airspace.

I said I would comply.

Mike Koerner

 

Hi Mike!

 

If a tower guy verbally abuses you, file a complaint with the Quality Assurance personnel for that facility.

 

Secondly, you can refuse the extra maneuvering as long as you are not within the bravo airspace. Just politely decline. Being in contact with ATC, especially near the LAX area, will make things a LOT easier on them. Whenever ATC has a radar contact that they are not talking with, they tend to give them a wider berth. If I were flying around the LAX area and they were asking me to do a bunch of maneuvers, I would say something to the effect of "Sir/Ma'am,. I don't want to just simply stop talking to you because I know you want to know what a little putter like me is doing, but I'm just flying around locally to see the scenery. Can we come up with a plant to avoid all the extra maneuvering? Thanks!"

 

Remember as well, when you contact ATC, they automatically assume you are participating in the advisory service. Something to the effect that I said above will clear that right up.

[Ed Cesnalis]

Back in the day, before it was SoCal approach and before moving maps this was a PITA especially at night.  I would talk to Ontario as I approached the San Gabriel Mtns and they would begin the vectoring.  No big deal being vectored around for a while until they suddenly tell you to resume your own navigation and you don't know where you are.

 

If you didn't have DME you needed a sectional, flashlight and 2 VORs.

 

I now fly with 3 moving maps lit up and a spare on my phone.

[FlyingMonkey]

It really is astounding the tools we have now.  Unless there is a GPS outage or a hardware failure it seems hard to fathom how modern pilots get lost (though of course it happens).  

[opticsguy]

That being said, ATC let me fly northeastward from Western MO to outside Chicago at 8000 feet.  I've only once heard ATC tell someone to get to the right VFR level, and that was around busy Tulsa airspace.  I've asked ATC about flying at 5500 when I should be 4500 or 6500, and they say "remain VFR"

 

As for jets below the Class B, it happens all the time in Dallas, too.   Southwest jets coming into KDAL would routinely bust the 3000 MSL top of Addison Class D, so much that there was a frequency set up for it.  Last sectional, they lowered the top of KADS class D to 2500 MSL.  The jet noise in N. Dallas is much worse now.