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FD CTSW Fatal Crash


gbigs

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Crash was July 5... he passed the 16th.  RIP.  He was conscious and talking, so hopefully there will be more information.  Life-long pilot. He served for 39 years in the U.S. Military which included 4 years U.S. Navy Reserve, 13 years U.S. Marine Corps, 22 years U.S. National Guard and had 30 years service at American Airlines as a captain - See more at: http://www.amigonefuneralhome.com/obituary/John-A.-Schnabel/A-Williamsville-NY/1402157#sthash.k714tRFv.dpuf

 

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jul/21/man-hurt-in-july-5-plane-crash-dies-from-injuries

http://www.nyalert.gov/Public/News/AllHazPRView.aspx?notID=4030018&refer=HOME&source=WEB&messageID=AghxO4T6A&

http://rochester.twcnews.com/content/news/754568/family-remembers-pilot-who-died-in-crash

http://www.buffalonews.com/city-region/obituaries/john-a-schnabel-30-year-american-airlines-pilot-20140717 

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This hits very close to home, my airplane is N509CT.

 

The NTSB report says 1 serious injury....did the pilot die later from his injuries?

Andy, while the "N" number is one off the serial numbers are off by quite a bit. His was 06-10-06, and yours is 07-06-14. They were built eight months apart.

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Unstable in both pitch and bank.  Just off the top of my head, I can't imagine a plausible control failure that would cause both.  If my math is right, he was 78 years old. 

 

Planes with clockwise spinning engines have a tendency to roll left due to torque and during climb due to P-factor. Additionally, the nose will oscillate as it tries to find the balance point for aerodynamic forces, especially given the low airspeeds.

 

I can see the ailerons and stabilator getting jammed since they use many common control points, but the rudder is a bit harder to jam without knowing, especially since it's linked to the nosewheel. However, if you can't move the controls, how many of us would think to use the rudder to counter the left roll while in a panic?

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Planes with clockwise spinning engines have a tendency to roll left due to torque and during climb due to P-factor. Additionally, the nose will oscillate as it tries to find the balance point for aerodynamic forces, especially given the low airspeeds.

 

I can see the ailerons and stabilator getting jammed since they use many common control points, but the rudder is a bit harder to tell, especially since it's linked to the nosewheel. However, if you can't move the controls, how many of us would think to use the rudder to counter the left roll while in a panic?

I'd pull the chute, regardless of the altitude.

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I'd pull the chute, regardless of the altitude.

 

Which leads me to think something happened to the pilot during the takeoff. Still, remembering the parachute during a panic is a challenge in itself, especially if it's the first time you ever had to use it.

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A helicopter pilot for 32 years and a airline pilot for 30. Both professions would have inculcated emergency actions. He was conscious when pulled from the wreckage. One would think he'd be cognizant of the situation and attempted some remedial/emergency action.

The runway is asphalt 2750' long by 35' wide.

The NTSB report says witnesses claim he did a runup on the approach end of 7, then taxiied to 25 for departure. I'm willing to bet a pilot of this experience did not do the runup on the approach end, but rathe on the apron. See Google Earth and note the location of the hangars.

If the rest of the witness reports are likely as spot on......

Assuming the witnesses were at the approach end of 7, where all the buildings are, they are saying that he went all the way to the end of the runway to do his departure. That is half a mile. Given the layout, it's is plausible that they had his takeoff position pretty well placed.

Steeper than normal climb out. From nearly 1/2 mile away? Familiar with how well a CTSW climbs when lightly loaded?

Oscillating in pitch? Never got higher than 75 feet? Based on what, comparison with trees? Again, nearly 1/2 mile away? I bet the trees were 75 feet, so he was perhaps higher?

Left bank oscillation? Same distance. How much oscillation? What bank angle? Was it simultaneous with the pitch oscillations or were they distinct?

Wind at Buffalo was 250 at 10 to 18 knots. Temps in the high 70's.

I have come to no conclusions. Except it would be nice to get verification of the witness reports.

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A helicopter pilot for 32 years and a airline pilot for 30. 

 

Half of LSA accidents come from highly experienced pilots. The source of that datapoint is AFS 610. Call and ask about it.

 

We also see a lot of airline pilots transitioning back down to small aircraft, and require several hours of refresher because habits from the airliners have become ingrained in their thought processes. Before my time, we lost a mooney to an airline captain because he forgot to put the gear down (a function of the co-pilot in his airline). It was his first time flying a small plane in years.

 

Anytime someone opens a discussion by quoting their experience, I start to roll my eyes and think "great, one of these guys". Experience certainly is a significant factor, but that can used in both directions. I never use experience by itself to prove or disprove a case. It's a fallacy.

 

As for the rest: I agree, relying on eyewitness statements and just armchair investigating should be done with reservation, but having a discussion should be encouraged :).

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. . . "a function of the co-pilot in his airline" . . .

I seriously doubt that.

 

Captain has the ultimate responsibility.

The entire crew is task to ensure the landing gear is down (including flight engineer, 2nd officer, if applicable).

If the 1st officer (co-pilot) is physically flying the leg, he calls for gear extension . . . the captain then physically moves the gear handle down.

 

It is the duty of all pilots on the flight deck to ensure the gear is down.

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I seriously doubt that.

 

Captain has the ultimate responsibility.

The entire crew is task to ensure the landing gear is down (including flight engineer, 2nd officer, if applicable).

If the 1st officer (co-pilot) is physically flying the leg, he calls for gear extension . . . the captain then physically moves the gear handle down.

 

It is the duty of all pilots on the flight deck to ensure the gear is down.

 

Was before my time. That's how the story went.

 

Still, there's a long history in people landing on the belly in all kinds of retracts for a variety of reasons, even despite the loud and obnoxious gear warning horns and lights. We can go back and forth all day and say what the book says and what the pilots actually do, and I've got a looooong list of stories about pilots not doing it by the book.

 

Checklist, checklist, checklist.

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I'm willing to bet that the accidents you speak of are mostly landing. Further, they are usually early in the transition stage. This was not landing.

How long had he owned and flown this airplane? I don't have that information at hand.

My point on experience was that both his prior flying situations would have extensive training in emergency procedures and my surmise is that he'd have kept that kind of mind set. In both the helicopter and the airlines, there are memory items for emergencies that you must be able to do without checklists. Loss of power in a helicopter and loss of pressure in an airliner are two examples. It seems likely that this kind of mindset would be strong and that he'd have taken some kind of logical action such leveling the wings and putting the nose down (if he indeed was oscillating).

What could have caused him to fly as he did?

Where was he headed? The wind was gusting. There were trees on the side of the runway. Below the tree the wind may have been one factor and above the treeline it may have been another.

Let's say he was going to fly south or east. He departs with a good climb. Wind gusts may rocked the wings a bit. He starts a turnout to the left, maybe earlier than some would have expected (but he can climb pretty quickly). More gusts, change from 15° to 0° flaps, steep turn out - all hypothesis but can explain some of what the witnesses claim to have seen.

Can someone tell us how long he'd been flying the CT or similar airplanes recently?

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I'm willing to bet that the accidents you speak of are mostly landing. Further, they are usually early in the transition stage. This was not landing.

 

Right, and what I was getting at is that quoting previous experience in helicopters and airlines is not a good indicator. However, the other questions you just asked definitely are! Time in type and recency are both the biggest indicators to insurance companies, who are masters of statistics.

 

> It seems likely that this kind of mindset would be strong and that he'd have taken some kind of logical action such leveling the wings and putting the nose down (if he indeed was oscillating).

 

I still reiterate, when faced with an actual emergency, a lot of people have difficulty reacting quickly enough. Training, training, and more training still are the best way to combat "freezing up", but it's still not 100% effective. I think a really good question to ask is this: Has he ever faced a life threatening emergency, and not just part of training? How did he react? Granted he has a long list of experience behind him, but that doesn't mean he's ever actually faced a bona-fide emergency.

 

As for the question about him putting it down when it was oscillating: I would expect that's exactly what he would have done if he was able. Given the experience, I was leaning more towards a problem with the controls, or a physical problem with the pilot. I haven't discounted the pilot himself just because of said experience though (as said, it's not a very good indicator, but it is an indicator none-the-less).

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Before I soloed, one winter morning I took off with my CFI and experienced exactly the same begining with the plane sliding back and forth ,right to left to right. I did not seem to have any control. Thankfully my CFI recognized a stall and pushed forward and solved the problem. Apparently i was climbing too steeply and I like to think I learned the lesson. That stall was so different then the intentional stalls at altitude because the stick really seemed to do nothing except forward for the CFI. And it all happened so fast. The CFI saved our lives that day. The accident on July 5 sounds like a plain old stall. Perhaps he was still trimmed for landing or he tried to force the plane to fly too soon Those are my thoughts/speculations. I'm sure glad the CFI was there to save me. It was a good experience for me and since then have been very careful not to force it too soon or takeoff too steeply

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Eagle Wings.  Good points.  I had a similar experience as you with low hours.  Was taking off from a short grass runway with some crosswind.  I pulled the plane off the runway before it was ready to fly due to the short length and got banked and headed for a row of hangars.  Used aileron to try to level the plane and bring me back to the runway.  Was lucky enough to stop using aileron and use opposite rudder instead and also lucky to realize I needed to lower the nose and this was successful.  If my CTSW wouldn't have had such good performance I would have stalled even using rudder and pushing the nose down.  I didn't oscillate but I was wallowing nose high and banked with right wing low drifting to the right.  I still can visualize those hangars and know how fast this can happen.  As stated, the cause for this accident must wait for full investigation.  My thoughts go to the pilot's loved ones.

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Right, and what I was getting at is that quoting previous experience in helicopters and airlines is not a good indicator.

You continue to misinterpret my comments. I said absolutely nothing about his skill as a pilot based on his prior experience. ALL I said was he had a lot of training in emergency reaction and my point was that he would likely have retained some knowledge of what one does right away.

It is interesting that the plane reportedly landed heading east (180° to departure) and was nearly inverted (whatever nearly inverted means). I wonder if a wing caught a tree at some point and whipped the plane around?

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You continue to misinterpret my comments. I said absolutely nothing about his skill as a pilot based on his prior experience. ALL I said was he had a lot of training in emergency reaction and my point was that he would likely have retained some knowledge of what one does right away.

 

My apologies then, Jim :)

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  • 2 weeks later...

I've had a couple experiences in my CTSW that might be relevant.  At OSH 2 years ago I camped overnight with the left wing down.  Taking off from the ultralight field, as soon as I got out of ground effect I needed full right aileron to keep the plane level (and gave a scare to the crowd along the fence).  I concentrated on building up speed instead of altiitude so i could go to 0 flaps.  Then I looked at my fuel sight tubes.  One was empty and one was full, and I had 15 gallons on board.  Unfortuately, all 15 gallons were on the left side with me and the prop torque.  That's 90 lbs of extra lift for the left wing.

 

Camping with the left wing low let allow the fuel drain to the left wing.  I forgot to check this at the Washington Island fly-in a few weeks back and repeated this in front of an even larger crowd.  Once again, my left wing was low when parked.

 

You don't feel this in ground effect, but once you're 30 feet off the ground the plane will bank to the left something crazy.

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