Anticept Posted November 2, 2014 Report Share Posted November 2, 2014 By the way, I just wrote a letter to my local distributor. I'll try to chase this up the chain to try and help you guys out. Maybe, just maybe, I can get some answers for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted November 2, 2014 Report Share Posted November 2, 2014 Corey, No one is suggesting that Roger and you are anyone's enemies, but I do think that Roger and you explain or apologize for Rotax and try to mollify or calm us down when the facts do not support that position. The explanation is useful. Defending them is not convincing. Sorry about that. See my PM to you for some background that raises further questions. My sense is that Rotax Owners specifically and RFSC to some extent has an agenda that is often useful but sometimes antithetical to my interests. The more we are told about how Rotax rules from a distance and works through semi-independent fiefdoms the less one is confident their basic interests coincide with ours. I was serious that I am looking for another engine in a future airplane. Sadly, Viking sounds interesting but has support credibility issues. In my search, I have one major advantage - I often/usually fly solo so engine weight, except as it affects CG and weight/balance, is of minimal importance to me. I can put in a heavy engine and big tanks with little personal cost, and still fly LSA legally, and since I have no interest at all in resale, I don't care what anyone else thinks about my choices. I'd like to find a diesel, but there are not many possibilities. I may end up going back to Lycoming and Continental. The way this works is that Rotax is taking itself out of the position of being the obvious choice to simply being a consideration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted November 2, 2014 Report Share Posted November 2, 2014 Hey Jim! I sent a reply. In fact, in PMs i can be a little more loosely tongued about some of my own annoyanes with the system and service industry, so let's pick up from there. Other than that, we're dealing with european companies, which think differently than we do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted November 2, 2014 Report Share Posted November 2, 2014 " I do think that Roger and you explain or apologize for Rotax and try to mollify or calm us down when the facts do not support that position." I have taken time to learn about the system and to dig deep enough to know how it works and that being a European MFG it is not likely to change. So I have learned how to work within the system to make it work for me. I relay what I find out here on the forums in the hope that someone will benefit from a post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted November 3, 2014 Report Share Posted November 3, 2014 I was serious that I am looking for another engine in a future airplane. Sadly, Viking sounds interesting but has support credibility issues. In my search, I have one major advantage - I often/usually fly solo so engine weight, except as it affects CG and weight/balance, is of minimal importance to me. I can put in a heavy engine and big tanks with little personal cost, and still fly LSA legally, and since I have no interest at all in resale, I don't care what anyone else thinks about my choices. I'd like to find a diesel, but there are not many possibilities. I may end up going back to Lycoming and Continental. The way this works is that Rotax is taking itself out of the position of being the obvious choice to simply being a consideration. UL Power is making a lot of headway in the aircraft engine market. But a friend of mine put one in a Highlander and then ended up taking it out and replacing it with a Rotax. He said the engine was sluggish and not making rated power, in spite of a lot of back and forth with the factory. That's just one data point, and the only negative experience I have read with the UL Power engines. No mechanical device designed, built, or distributed by man will be perfect. Rotax does a good job IMO, but there is always room for improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WmInce Posted November 3, 2014 Report Share Posted November 3, 2014 Andy, Any thoughts on the Honda Viking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted November 3, 2014 Report Share Posted November 3, 2014 Andy, Any thoughts on the Honda Viking? At the time I looked, no one would insure it because there was no data. No idea if it is still the case. Edit: is the viking honda's engine? Or a third party? I was asking my broker about it but i never knew what it was called. It was a casual conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted November 3, 2014 Report Share Posted November 3, 2014 My understanding is that the Viking is pretty much a Honda Fit motor as delivered by Honda. Nothing wrong with it, and Honda makes really reliable engines. I'm not sure about the application to an airplane though. To make full power it will need to run at high RPM for most of it's life, much higher than the normal RPM seen in the automotive application. Unlike the Rotax, that is not what it's designed to do. That doesn't mean it won't do it very well, it just means I don't know. Some cam and timing changes would probably help, not sure if that is done to the engine. In any event, it's probably not going to be a 2000hr TBO engine. I would take a Viking over a Subaru or Corvair conversion, if not for the involvement of Jan Eggenfellner. He has a history of leaving customers holding the bag on his engine projects, and I think he did that for years on the Viking with early depositors. To wit: http://www.avoidvikingaircraft.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishAl Posted November 3, 2014 Report Share Posted November 3, 2014 But, because of the language barrier, they might not even know that there is an urgent need for parts, There's no language barrier in Austria with English - virtually every Rotax employee in Austria will speak perfect English, from the shop floor up. BRP/Rotax have something broken in their supply chain or are simply ignoring data. This is a lot closer to the issue I think, and I don't believe they would tolerate a broken supply chain. The only logical explanation that checks all the boxes is that they don't have enough modules to meed demand, and they'll prioritize supply to the production line over aftermarket every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted November 3, 2014 Report Share Posted November 3, 2014 There's no language barrier in Austria with English - virtually every Rotax employee in Austria will speak perfect English, from the shop floor up. Point taken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted November 3, 2014 Report Share Posted November 3, 2014 Do some google searches on the Honda Viking and you will find it is being presented by a guy with what some might consider less than a stellar past reputation in the aircraft business. If google doesn't help, visit Van's Air Force - he has been banned from that site and there are some rather pointed discussions there. This does not necessarily mean it is a suspect engine, of course, or even that the engine is OK but the accessories are suspect - it only leads me to be somewhat cautious in being sure that product will be delivered and supported as promised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogerck Posted November 24, 2014 Report Share Posted November 24, 2014 I (finally) received the new ignition modules from Lockwood. Regarding the added trigger wire that connects to the starter solenoid, I assume there is a female pin missing on the engine side of the six pin connector where a new pin is inserted. Is that correct or must an old pin be removed? Also, what color harness wire does the added wire line up to? I haven't yet made the trip to my plane and want to know this ahead of time. Roger Kuhn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted November 24, 2014 Report Share Posted November 24, 2014 My Sky Arrow had the pins (one of six on each of the two connectors) missing on the coil side with a rubber plug over the missing hole. My modules came with several pins - you crimp the wire to the pin, remove the rubber plug, and the pin snaps into place. There is a pdf of the procedure - I think I may have already linked to it in this thread, but I'm not sure. If you need it I can track it down and repost it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted November 27, 2014 Report Share Posted November 27, 2014 Both 6 pin connectors have one blank pin hole. Take a wire and crimp the appropriate pin on it and push it in the hole with the small rubber boot that seals the connection from moisture. Run both those wires down to the starter solenoid and crimp them together with the small single wire located in the middle of the solenoid. There is a wire on each end of the solenoid and the small middle wire. This is all that needs to be done. Now when you turn the key the electrical signal goes from the solenoid to the ignition models and initiates the soft start feature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandpiper Posted February 24, 2015 Report Share Posted February 24, 2015 Did I wait too long to buy these modules? Although I have no sign of failure on my 2007 CTSW with 400 hours TT, I decided to purchase a pair of new modules as a preemptive action and to get the soft start benefit. Called CPS just now to order and was told they were $950 +\- EACH. When I told the woman I knew of several people on the forum who paid that for the pair, she checked with Kevin who confirmed the price had recently gone up. I'll call Lockwood tomorrow but was wondering if anyone on the forum knew anything about this?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted February 24, 2015 Report Share Posted February 24, 2015 My CT is hard to start when I have the Tanis plugged in. It starts soft but its hard to find the choke setting where it will start. Maybe its not the Tanis but the ignition module? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandpiper Posted February 24, 2015 Report Share Posted February 24, 2015 My CT is hard to start when I have the Tanis plugged in. It starts soft but its hard to find the choke setting where it will start. Maybe its not the Tanis but the ignition module? That's how it begins. Being heated by the Tanis makes it worse if it raises the temperature at the modules. When it gets to the point it won't start at all, put ice on it. If that solves the problem, you know you have a bad module. Eventually the ice won't help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted February 24, 2015 Report Share Posted February 24, 2015 That's how it begins. Being heated by the Tanis makes it worse if it raises the temperature at the modules. When it gets to the point it won't start at all, put ice on it. If that solves the problem, you know you have a bad module. Eventually the ice won't help. Thanks John, No ice in the hangar but I can keep a bag in the luggage till I need it. :unsure: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WmInce Posted February 24, 2015 Report Share Posted February 24, 2015 Hard to believe given the prevalence of this issue, that Rotax has not issued a SB or recall. Especially since it's clearly a problem confined to one two year batch of modules. :angry: Concur Andy. Is this what you and I can expect sometime in the future? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LS Bruce Posted February 24, 2015 Report Share Posted February 24, 2015 I just received my modules last week from Leading Edge (LEAF). Rotax #881-280 is for the kit of two modules and the power connector pins. Still $994 for the pair. They had 12 kits 2 weeks ago. They work as you may have read. Engine starts nice, no kick back, runs kinda crappy for about 5 seconds or so. Then smooths out and runs great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2FlyAgain Posted February 24, 2015 Report Share Posted February 24, 2015 Did I wait too long to buy these modules? Although I have no sign of failure on my 2007 CTSW with 400 hours TT, I decided to purchase a pair of new modules as a preemptive action and to get the soft start benefit. Called CPS just now to order and was told they were $950 +\- EACH. When I told the woman I knew of several people on the forum who paid that for the pair, she checked with Kevin who confirmed the price had recently gone up. I'll call Lockwood tomorrow but was wondering if anyone on the forum knew anything about this?? Late last summer when I needed a pair, the exact replacement item was priced at about $2,000 for a pair. I have a 2005 CTSW. The exact replacement was the older style modules. I was able to obtain a pair of the "new" modules with the soft start feature from Lockwood for less than a $1,000. Remember thinking that it seemed strange that Rotax was almost paying me to upgrade. The price of $1,000 for the new style pair seemed to be the going rate at the time. I will say that my aircraft has been starting much better with the new modules. I may have replaced two batteries when I should have replaced the modules. But, I didn't know about the "bag of ice" test until last summer. I hope that you find a pair at last summer's price and not the price that you were quoted... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandpiper Posted February 24, 2015 Report Share Posted February 24, 2015 Called LEAF this morning. Ordered the pair for less than $1,000. Thanks Bruce. Not sure what CPS was thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted February 24, 2015 Report Share Posted February 24, 2015 Back in September I was told by LEAF that the module kit prices were going to go up. They said that they were going to place a large order before this happened. Likely when these are gone their prices will also go up too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tip Posted February 24, 2015 Report Share Posted February 24, 2015 Bruce and I have early 2008 LSs with one plane built between them. The module issue had been a problem for 2007s and older but it looks like that's not the case. I replaced mine last June. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandpiper Posted February 24, 2015 Report Share Posted February 24, 2015 Back in September I was told by LEAF that the module kit prices were going to go up. They said that they were going to place a large order before this happened. Likely when these are gone their prices will also go up too.[/ Sounds like I lucked out.. I didn't ask how many more they had. But, if anyone suspects they are in line for this problem, they better call LEAF now. 1-800-532-3462. A buddy of mine in the Airpark recently had his go bad on a RANS S-7. It's going around. Are you listening CT? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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