Jim Meade Posted September 2, 2014 Report Share Posted September 2, 2014 I am frustrated that one can not copy segments of Rotax documents and then reproduce them here as a reference for others in a discussion such as this. Rotax has some kind of lock on the file. I suppose with enough effort one could figure out how to break it, but what kind of attitude is this from a company that should foster owner, operator and mechanic knowledge? If we want to discuss FAA documents, we copy them and all can look at the exact words without having to go to the basic source. We did that with the question on Sport Flying and business. It's much faster and keeps a discussion focused. Roger often makes the point that Rotax documents are inconsistent, saying the same document is issued for fixed and constant speed prop operation, as one example, without drawing a distinction between the two. Citing a document for certain rpms or ranges of operation will draw a response from Roger that the information applies to variable speed prop operation but doesn't really apply to fixed pitch prop operations. If we could copy and compare segments we could more easily figure out if the manual is inconsistent or if we are expected to take the word of some unknown expert who allegedly informed Roger. At this stage, we have only Roger interpreting the documents. Let me say for about the umpteenth time that I have been to two Rotax schools and I never once heard a single thing spoken in contravention of the manuals. There were some procedural tips, such as hold the wrench this way or here is a home-made tool to make the job easier, but not once was I told "the manual is wrong, or the manual should be interpreted in some special way, or this additional information is not in the manual". You will forgive me if I'm skeptical about individual interpretations that are not consistent with the written manual and which I have not heard any where else. When this kind of "expert" interpretation occurs, different readings of a manual can creep in that then bias judgment. One example is the question of what speed to operate an engine. My own interpretation is that as long as you pitch the prop to 5500 or a little higher WOT, you can idle back with no particular harm to the engine. Only if you pitch the prop in the high 4s or low 5s will you lug the engine in a possibly harmful way which is made even worse when you idle back. I base this on my readings of the manuals. If there is an engine operation issue Rotax should publish a clarifying document. It is obviously not just me who is interested in this topic. Rotax does so with engine oils and coolants, for example. Why can't it put out an SB on such issues? One help could be if Roger finds a point in the manuals that he feels needs explanation or amplification or he has been told is incomplete or not applicable, that he start a separate document with references and sources that we could all look to. An addendum, if you will. Roger has written enough words on these kinds of topics that he'd probably find it easier in the long run to document his knowledge in one place on this cite and simply refer us to it. Eventually, each item that Roger learns in his schools or from his expert friends would be documented so we would all benefit from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted September 2, 2014 Report Share Posted September 2, 2014 Some thoughts: I spent many years working with technicians(mechanics) who day in and day out worked on specialized areas of vehicles. If technical problems arose in the field, the company would work with these technicians to gather knowledge on probable causes and then design tests based on this knowledge and run the tests in the labs which usually resulted in solving the concern. It isn't always data gathered by large testing activities that solve concerns but most times it's data gathered by small groups or from an individual who work and live with mechanical systems on a daily basis that offer some of the best problem solving data. If I have a problem with my vehicle, I don't go to a shop manual to resolve this. I am fortunate that my type of work allows me to find the mechanic with inside knowledge who has worked on the area of my concern to get it fixed correctly. A beautiful example of this process would be where Thiokol was forced to finally own up to the problem with their booster seals due to one engineer who specialized in the seals and had inside information that none of the thousands of pages of instruction books would ever say existed. For me, if I need to resolve a concern with my engine, the best way to do this is not to read a manual but to get advice from those on this forum who work on our 912 ULS engine daily. The other point here is it is a simple matter to figure out where the "sweet spots" are for our 912ULS engines if we might be lucky enough to have a member that might have a vibration analyzer available. If some runups could be done with the Rotax to determine where and of what magnitude the vibration periods occur, this would be great data to have. Although high amplitudes might not be detrimental to the engine, this will show resonances that are probably best to avoid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted September 2, 2014 Report Share Posted September 2, 2014 I am frustrated that one can not copy segments of Rotax documents and then reproduce them here as a reference for others in a discussion such as this. Rotax has some kind of lock on the file. I suppose with enough effort one could figure out how to break it, but what kind of attitude is this from a company that should foster owner, operator and mechanic knowledge? Not to encourage anything that would violate copyright protection, but... ...if I can bring the text up on my screen, what I often do is just take a screen shot, then upload to Flickr, then post the link to that. Again, it may violate copyright protection, but it may also be "fair use" if not used for commercial gain. But that's a whole 'nother discussion and I am not an expert in digital rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted September 2, 2014 Report Share Posted September 2, 2014 No one says that lower rpm will DAMAGE an engine. All that is said that it causes unwanted vibration and wear that won't happen at the higher rpms where the engine was designed to run the majority of the time. This will make things like gearbox parts last longer and have less cost involved during inspection periods and ownership. No different than many engines in use from many MFG's. Most engines have run design optimization rpm's. You can run your oil for 500 hours and it will still have lubrication. There are best maintenance and engine operation guide lines, you can choose to follow them or not. It has always been your choice. Not a single person has had their arm twisted to follow anything. Owners who choose to do their own thing keep the MFG in money because of parts, keeps mechanic's in business and helps keep an owners maintenance cost high. Time to move on. We aren't and won't be able to solve this at our level. This has been beat to death for years and it isn't going to change. The truth is out there and you can find it. How much of your time, money and effort do you want to invest. If others have found it so can you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josjonkers Posted September 2, 2014 Report Share Posted September 2, 2014 "Time to move on. We aren't and won't be able to solve this at our level. This has been beat to death for years and it isn't going to change." At least till the next time this flares up AGAIN! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WmInce Posted September 2, 2014 Report Share Posted September 2, 2014 . . . "Time to move on. We aren't and won't be able to solve this at our level. This has been beat to death for years and it isn't going to change. The truth is out there and you can find it. How much of your time, money and effort do you want to invest. If others have found it so can you." . . . Thanks Roger . . . for everything you do for us, all the information you disseminate and the countless tips, videos and techniques you share. I, personally, really appreciate all the hours you have spent with me, educating me and pointing me in the right direction, helping me solve the problems I have had in acquiring and maintaining my aircraft. You are an invaluable resource to the Flight Design community and this forum. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted September 2, 2014 Report Share Posted September 2, 2014 Thanks Roger . . . for everything you do for us, all the information you disseminate and the countless tips, videos and techniques you share. I, personally, really appreciate all the hours you have spent with me, educating me and pointing me in the right direction, helping me solve the problems I have had in acquiring and maintaining my aircraft. You are an invaluable resource to the Flight Design community and this forum. . . This times 1,000. Please don't take any of my comments personally. A lot of us are just extremely analytical (anal?) and love to be able to quote "primary sources". None of this is meant to belittle or doubt any of the advice we get from you. I can only speak for myself, but I value it highly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralarcon Posted September 2, 2014 Report Share Posted September 2, 2014 This times 1,000. Please don't take any of my comments personally. A lot of us are just extremely analytical (anal?) and love to be able to quote "primary sources". None of this is meant to belittle or doubt any of the advice we get from you. I can only speak for myself, but I value it highly! I would like to echo the above sentiment. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted September 2, 2014 Report Share Posted September 2, 2014 I don't really take most things personally. What I try to do is pass on info that isn't readily available to certain people or the public due to lack of exposure to certain maintenance or exposure to certain people. Hi Bill and others, We're good. My wife thinks I'm cold sometimes because I rarely get upset and just analyze and solve the problem in an analytical fashion. 30 years of training will do that to a person especially if he was the I.C. and couldn't afford emotional solutions. I'm good with most anything and rarely (okay sometimes , LOL) never take anything personally. I have always been a very thick skinned individual. I try to help everyone just because I like to, but like all the other forums and forum members around the globe and the admins, if someone doesn't like you because you have become a well know troll then they quit trying to help certain people because no matter how hard you try they always find fault and criticize. If that's all someone wants to do then quit asking and do it yourself. Someone always told me: It's not for me to slow down, but for you to catch up. I have taken that to heart over the years. Some catch up voluntarily because they want to (those are a pleasure to help), some you drag kicking and screaming (those are kind of the fun sometimes, LOL) and then some you just let sit there and wallow in place and they just keep falling farther behind. We all get those choices. I always ask people which one do you want to be? Either be part of the solution or stay out of the way so you aren't part of the problem. Being a firefighter and put in major decision making problems all the time you learn there are always options and moving a head and fixing the problem is far better than the ostrich with the head in the sand approach or standing there criticizing how you got there to start with. Complaining without solutions never fixes problems. The answer to most problems is: Suck it up and find the best viable solution with the resources you have at hand and git'er done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted September 2, 2014 Report Share Posted September 2, 2014 I don't think any of the discussion has been personal. Names have been used when specific people take specific positions that are under discussion. That doesn't make the issue personal. All of us are willing to stand up for our beliefs as far as I can tell. There seems to be frustration on how to resolve various questions. My frustration is when several purportedly expert sources give conflicting information. I'll always seek resolution on those kinds of questions. Our lives and our money is at stake and that is all the justification any of us needs to have a reason to ask when things are not clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WmInce Posted September 2, 2014 Report Share Posted September 2, 2014 I don't think any of the discussion has been personal. Names have been used when specific people take specific positions that are under discussion. That doesn't make the issue personal. All of us are willing to stand up for our beliefs as far as I can tell. There seems to be frustration on how to resolve various questions. My frustration is when several purportedly expert sources give conflicting information. I'll always seek resolution on those kinds of questions. Our lives and our money is at stake and that is all the justification any of us needs to have a reason to ask when things are not clear. Jim, Asking the questions isn't the problem. It is handling the answers where the rub lies. I understand where you are coming from though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishAl Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 This forum is an exceptional source of information and education for those of us with little experience or knowledge of FD and Rotax products. It's also very entertaining at times, too, and I would like to express my appreciation to everyone for contributing. Thank you! I hope the negative comments don't discourage the key contributors. (I think you have a very large 'passive' audience world-wide that benefits from your discussions - I was reading this forum for many months before I joined and made a comment - I bet lots more don't. ) On the subject of this thread, I fly at a school that has run 80 and 100hp engines for years up to the mid and high 2000s of hours, without any serious gearbox issues. (They are C42 microlights and can run past TBO on condition.) A very significant proportion of that time is clocked up at a steady 3800 rpm and 70kts. and practically none is clocked up at over 4500rpm except for take offs. Further, the aircraft are quite seriously over-propped, as flat out they run at bang on 5000 rpm. (I tested this out the other day on a 100hp model and was quite surprised.) In the light of the discussion all this points towards serious gearbox wear and tear, yet it's never been an issue. It seems to me that the discussion here is about very minor degrees of wear, and unless owners are going to run their engines into thousands of hours, it's not likely to ever develop into a serious issue if you want to fly slow most of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug G. Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 Al, those of us who have been around a while are familiar with these arguments. Roger has been extremely helpful to me personally on a number of issues, and I am being there are many others. He is highly appreciated by me and others. (As you can tell above.) The issue is that some of us are big on empirical evidence which is often lacking. We want to know where Roger (or anyone else making assertions) gets their information. We would like to know where the person who told Roger, or the person that told the person that told Roger (or anyone else) got their information. We do the same for rules and regs too, so it is not personal at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 I get answers from many sources that are experts within Rotax and or my own experience. Sometimes I get help from high up in the Rotax hierarchy and I was sworn not to divulge their involvement or they may have repercussions that would also cause my special sources to dry up. I won't let that happen as these sources are too valuable to me and it would shut down info I do get to divulge back to the public. I don't pull answers out of a hat so suffice to say they come from other experts in the field. We also share experiences between us that isn't made public. We have a special site on LinkedIn and I have been extremely fortunate to have a few direct phone numbers that aren't available to the public. These people let me know of things to come that haven't been publicized yet, so that is how I know about some future releases. Suffice to say I share what I'm allowed to share without cutting off the hand that feeds me. I ask for special answers in writing too and I don't always get them. It's the system, not me. It is what it is and like I said in another post, I have learned to work within the system because I can't change it, but I won't do something that drops me out of my special info highway. That's just information suicide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted September 3, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 I get answers from many sources that are experts within Rotax and or my own experience. Sometimes I get help from high up in the Rotax hierarchy and I was sworn not to divulge their involvement or they may have repercussions that would also cause my special sources to dry up. I won't let that happen as these sources are too valuable to me and it would shut down info I do get to divulge back to the public. I don't pull answers out of a hat so suffice to say they come from other experts in the field. We also share experiences between us that isn't made public. We have a special site on LinkedIn and I have been extremely fortunate to have a few direct phone numbers that aren't available to the public. These people let me know of things to come that haven't been publicized yet, so that is how I know about some future releases. Suffice to say I share what I'm allowed to share without cutting off the hand that feeds me. I ask for special answers in writing too and I don't always get them. It's the system, not me. It is what it is and like I said in another post, I have learned to work within the system because I can't change it, but I won't do something that drops me out of my special info highway. That's just information suicide. Don't hate the player...hate the game! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug G. Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 And, I suppose that is a big part of the issue. Most of us believe the important info should be provided directly to owners, or if only relevant to mechanics, directly to them. There should not be a back channel for those who have the right qualifications or connections. That is not (imho) in the the spirit of the creation of the creation of LSRM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted September 4, 2014 Report Share Posted September 4, 2014 If one goes to the Rotax Flying and Safety Club (RFSC) site one sees that they claim to be the official Rotax training sight for the Americas (minus Canada, I guess). They list the independent Rotax Maintenance Training program and current, trained repairmen who choose to be listed. http://rotaxirmt.com/home Of the iRMT listed, how is one to know which have the special access knowledge and which are just poor schmos out in the field who only attend required schools such as those put on at Leading Edge or California Power?. Like the one I attended where I got no special inside information? Is there a list of these super repairmen or how does one find them? It's likely that some people would like to go to the best possible repairmen and Arizona may be too far away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug G. Posted September 4, 2014 Report Share Posted September 4, 2014 You aren't an LSRM, A&P or CFI are you, Hamburger? As an owner don't you want to be informed by the manufacturer about what is best for your plane? Isn't knowing that a certain rpm or rpm range causes extra wear on your gearbox? (I don't know how wear is not damage, Roger, especially if it is more than normal wear.) Since Roger seems to be the only one with much of this knowledge what happens if something would happen to him? (Like he gets hired to do something else, and he no longer goes to the schools, or works on the planes.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted September 4, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 4, 2014 Doug, it seems to me that while of course "wear" is a form of damage, from what Roger is saying this is not damage likely to to cause a failure, but more just increased wear that will likely result in additional parts cost at gearbox inspection/overhaul time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted September 4, 2014 Report Share Posted September 4, 2014 There are other people out there that get additional info, but it is scattered not not always uniform. The distributors get info that they either don't share or can't share. Doug, p.s. I was going to retire at midnight. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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