WmInce Posted October 5, 2014 Report Share Posted October 5, 2014 My aircraft logbook is full, no more blank pages for entries. Does anybody have any suggestions or recommendations on good replacement logbooks for airplane, engine and propeller? If possible, a link to the applicable website would also be appreciated. Thank you in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted October 5, 2014 Report Share Posted October 5, 2014 http://www.aircraft-spruce.com/catalog/bvpages/asaenginese2.php http://www.aircraft-spruce.com/catalog/pspages/logs_ac2_asa.php?clickkey=7712 Get the hard covers for $8.95. Plenty of pages for many years to come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WmInce Posted October 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2014 http://www.aircraft-spruce.com/catalog/bvpages/asaenginese2.php http://www.aircraft-spruce.com/catalog/pspages/logs_ac2_asa.php?clickkey=7712 Get the hard covers for $8.95. Plenty of pages for many years to come. Thanks a lot Roger. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted October 5, 2014 Report Share Posted October 5, 2014 Also, if I can recommend: Have scans made of your logbooks. At the very least, have the last entires scanned related to inspections (annual and 100hr), any major work, and anything else time related like transponder tests. Having full copies of lookbooks avoids having your plane loosing 10-20% of it's value if they are lost, but even worse is having to use the FAA formula for estimating aircraft age if you can't reestablish time. The FAA's formula is NOT forgiving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WmInce Posted October 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2014 Have scans made of your logbooks. At the very least, have the last entires scanned related to inspections (annual and 100hr), any major work, and anything else time related like transponder tests. Having full copies of lookbooks avoids having your plane loosing 10-20% of it's value if they are lost, but even worse is having to use the FAA formula for estimating aircraft age if you can't reestablish time. The FAA's formula is NOT forgiving. Very good advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Hereford Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 WmInce, My recommendation is to abandon the "cookie cutter" logbooks. Spend 79 cents on a three ring binder and some dividers. Have you maintenance records printed and inserted into the binder in the areas created for the relevant equipment. Use page protectors to keep sensitive items safe from wear and tear. If you ever sell individual components (ie propeller or engine), remove the pertinent entries and transfer them with the sold equipment. Also create a section for Safety directive status, and other supporting maintenance documentation such as LOA's. Invoices and other financial or ownership records that do not meet the definition of a maintenance record entry, should not be included in here. Doug Hereford PS Anticept, What is the FAA's formula for determining "age" on aircraft?.......I assume you mean time in service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Hereford Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 Sport pilot, Good point. However in my experience, when purchasing an aircraft, it is better to assume that all entries have been altered, and have someone inspect the aircraft (and records) who is working on your behalf. A clue to missing records might be large gaps in date ranges for maintenance, or "boiler plate" inspection entries where the verbiage and repair documentation is exactly the same year-in and year-out. With regard to keeping records for yourself, (again in my experience) the three ring binder is much more practical. As an addition to the above mentioned sections, I would include an area for FAA form 337's if necessary (approved equipment that has had major repair/alterations), as well as Airworthiness Directive and Airworthiness Limitation status. Doug Hereford Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 Hi Doug, Yes, i mean TIS. I also understand why you would recommend a three ring binder, but taking scans of the relevant pages works too. . Still, 3 ring isn't a bad idea! As a side note on digital records: i know the FAA tried to push for these a while back, but the backlash was heavy, and a sticking point was proving that digital signatures were actually the mechanic's. It was expensive at the time to hold a signed digital certificate from a certificate authority. I would counter argue and ask them to prove the ink signature too though! Anyone know if the FAA would accept digital records with a cert from a CA? I don't recall them ever saying you can't, but they do need a way to verify that the digital signature IS yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Hereford Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 Anticept, You did not answer my question as to what the FAA formula for determining TIS is. The FAA has digitally signed my Ops specs for years. Unfortunately, this does not give relief to us in the field with regard to maintenance entry requirements. Sport pilot, Again, in my experience, the "other stuff" that makes up aircraft maintenance records, is usually the most important records. Personally, I don't care about the last twenty years of oil changes, etc. Safety Directive status, Airworthiness Directive status, inspection status, and alteration records are much more important. These records never seem to properly fit in those cute little ASA log books. Owners: The FAR reference is 91.417 Doug Hereford Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted October 9, 2014 Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 Anticept, You did not answer my question as to what the FAA formula for determining TIS is. The FAA has digitally signed my Ops specs for years. Unfortunately, this does not give relief to us in the field with regard to maintenance entry requirements. Doug Hereford I do not know of it off of the top pf my head. I know that it was a point of discussion in publications and regulations at school. I never got to see the formula itself. I will have to ask the local FSDO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WmInce Posted October 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 WmInce, My recommendation is to abandon the "cookie cutter" logbooks. Spend 79 cents on a three ring binder and some dividers. Have you maintenance records printed and inserted into the binder in the areas created for the relevant equipment. Use page protectors to keep sensitive items safe from wear and tear. If you ever sell individual components (ie propeller or engine), remove the pertinent entries and transfer them with the sold equipment. Also create a section for Safety directive status, and other supporting maintenance documentation such as LOA's. Invoices and other financial or ownership records that do not meet the definition of a maintenance record entry, should not be included in here. Doug Hereford PS Anticept, What is the FAA's formula for determining "age" on aircraft?.......I assume you mean time in service. Thanks Doug. All points well taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WmInce Posted October 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 Any required maintenance, ad's, etc. I want in a bound logbook. I guess we can disagree on this. I don't want a gear-up repair or major damage logged in a loose leaf notebook. Any written maintenance will fit in a bound book. Get a bigger book or fill up 10 of them numbered and dated consecutively. If you don't have this, I'm not going to purchase your airplane. All points well taken Sporty. Airplane is not for sale . . . . . . yet! . . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted October 9, 2014 Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 Any required maintenance, ad's, etc. I want in a bound logbook. I guess we can disagree on this. I don't want a gear-up repair or major damage logged in a loose leaf notebook. Any written maintenance will fit in a bound book. Get a bigger book or fill up 10 of them numbered and dated consecutively. If you don't have this, I'm not going to purchase your airplane. It has been a while since I have seen one, but I seem to remember a manufacturer that provided maintenance records in a 3 ring binder. I know I have one airplane that has an engine log that is that way. There were several aircraft that were switched to the Ad a Log system. As for major damage it should be recorded on a form 337 for standard category aircraft, and MRA for special LSA. The people who are going to try and hide something are likely not going to do the propper paper work or log book entries anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted October 9, 2014 Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 SportPilot: If the logbook entries are numbered so that you KNOW a page has been removed, would it make you more comfortable seeing a logbook in a 3 ring? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted October 9, 2014 Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 Airplane is not for sale . . . . . . yet! . . . . Everything is for sale if the price is right... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted October 9, 2014 Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 No, because you don't know what is missing or someone could replace a major damage page with an oil change page. I simply prefer a bound book. You guys do whatever you want. Continuing to argue this point serves no purpose. This site seems to like to beat a dead horse over and over on every topic. Why not just accept the fact that for many of these issues there is no right or wrong answer and it's OK for people to have other opinions and not always agree? No need to get snappy, I was just asking to see what would make you comfortable about a non-bound book What about sticky labels stuck in a bound book? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted October 9, 2014 Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 Going to be extremely difficult to find a plane like that these days. Companies are using software that prints on avery labels. That, and you will find it hard to have a repair station fix your plane and provide you with anything other than a work order form, which is often stapled in. Anyways, thanks for answering my question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Hereford Posted October 9, 2014 Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 Tom Baker, All of the newer Citation aircraft we work on have loose leaf 3 ring binder records from the factory. Newer Beechcraft as well. All of the Continental motors records come as a three ring binder type, but in a bound paperback set-up. Pratt and Whitney and Honeywell also use binders. Each has a provision for page numbers, but it seems uncommon that people use it. The bound ASA green and Maroon books have sections in them for specific types of records (AD's/SB, inspections, ETC), but other that Cirrus, I can't think of any MFG who uses them as designed. These are not bad products, it just seems like they end up really cluttered if all of the relevant supporting mx docs get attached to the pages. All, Suffice to say, that the regulations don't specify the form and manner for which maintenance records are to be kept. Each owner is free to design a system that works for them. I would personally not recommend traveling with the aircraft records, unless they are being transferred during a maintenance event, or sale of the aircraft. Doug Hereford Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 FWIW, I have scanned my original logbooks and now have an "original" three ring binder with scans of the original log entries. After these original entries, I then have added subsequent sticky-backed log entries from the mechanic or repair facility stuck onto a form I came up with. I keep the "original" binder in a safe spot and have copies of the electronic log book which is a PDF scan of these original pages. Here's a sample of one page from my Airframe logbook. This is my form with the sticky-backed log entry attached to it that was provided to me by the repair facility. I also have Engine and Propellor logbooks. All originals have colored ink signings. Should anyone question the authenticity of my log pages, they are free to go to the source of the entries at the various repair facilities to verify these are on file and are valid. aircraft log 11.22.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 I think the issue is missing or removed entries, not validity of entries that are present Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 And maybe I'm the only one who has that concern. Nope. Somehow I have trouble reconciling "permanent record" with "looseleaf binder". My entries go on stickers into the logbooks that came with my plane. Supplemental items - invoices, receipts, etc. go into file folders by year. But whatever works! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Hereford Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 Fast Eddie, I hear what you are saying, however if you read FAR 91.417 (required records, and retention periods for them), true "permanent records" are usually found in a loose leaf format. Legally speaking, there are two types of maintenance records with regard to retention. Permanent records are kept and transfered with the aircraft when sold. Expiring records make up the rest. Condition inspections, oil changes, and other types of repairs and service are technically expiring records. These can legally be discarded after the work has been repeated, superceded, or after one year (exclusion for records related to FAR 91.411 and 91.413). If you think about it, this makes some sense. Once I perform a condition inspection on your plane and approve it for return to service, I own it, period. The last condition inspection before mine is now superceded, and the previous inspector is basically "off the hook". Same goes for repairs and other service type entries. Once these taskes are repeated, the previous records for them become expired, an could legally be discarded. On the contrary, records for Airworthiness Directive status, Safety Directive status, life limited parts status, and alteration records never expire. These are true "permanent records". These must be kept forever. Typically, these records come in the form of standard 8.5X11 documents (ie FAA form 337s, and AD status reports). Most of the time, I find these records filed in some obscure place, or stapled to pages inside these little green and maroon books. To me this make for a mess when trying to perform records research. It seems a little ironic I guess, but aurgably the most important maintenance records, are the ones that don't fit in the book. Doug Hereford Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 It all works and is legal and it comes down to personal preference. Just like we all own different cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 As a potential buyer of an aircraft, I want to see the complete history of that aircraft in a bound volume where nothing has been added or deleted. To me, that is the definition of a permanent record. How long are we going to beat this dead horse? People obviously have differing opinions.We're not really beating a dead horse at this point, just discussing personal preferences for everyone to contribute . Anyways (open reply, not just to you), my own personal preference is this. If i see loose leaf or bound books, I would not mind either way as long as they are tidy. While I appreciate seeing a complete history, what matters to me is major work performed, AD and SB status, and the treatment of the airplane over the *recent* years. I am more likely to buy a plane where I have seen oil changes and inspections often, vs one that I never see an oil change between annuals. To me, that says the airplane flies a lot (or TIS between annuals of 20-30 hrs a year is still good, and means it still sees use). What I don't want to see is multiple years where the TIS has only turned over a few hours, because the engine might start developing hidden problems. If inspection checklists are included, that means I can see a bit more detail in trends. Not vital for me, but definately would help your case if there is a gap, or some slow flying periods. Distant past items mean little. I still want to see them if I am looking in the airplane for a prebuy though, because If i see major work done and no corresponding 337/logbook entry, I am going to really question the logbooks and treatment of the plane. This, to me, is a major red flag. Not a dealbreaker, but it's really going to hurt you. Basically there needs to be a really good reason why it's missing or I will walk. There is probably some other little things i am forgetting, but it is a pretty good summary! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted October 11, 2014 Report Share Posted October 11, 2014 FastEddieB, Doug H., and RunToEat have been contributing their own views and discussions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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