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ATC Vector: Mag Hdg Or Gnd Trk


gbigs

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This is very educational. My takeaway from this discussion is that I will now attempt to make a mental note my magnetic direction by lining up on the runway prior to departure.  This most definitely will not match the painted numbers but it will allow me to fly the actual extended runway centerline heading if ATC directs me to "fly runway heading".   Per Jim's comments, I looked up the airport diagram for my local airport (KYIP).  Here's a copy of runway 5R-23L info.

Runway 05R.doc

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Ed, you bring up a good point. How many of us practice, in familiar surroundings, all the procedures we would deliberately follow if we were flying routinely into strange airports. When I was flying charter, we often went into new airports, some with confusing layouts. We used to call out the runway number and call out the DG presentation when we lined up as a matter of course. This became even more vivid in our minds after the Comair accident out of Lexington where they were told to take 26 and took 22 (which was too short).

 

Maybe as VFR info is presented more like IFR plates on the glass cockpits we will all tend to using the same information the same way. The easier it is to find something the more likely we are to integrate it into our flow, it would seem to me.

 

Flying out of airports like St. Lois, Chicago, Minneapolis (just to name a few) with parallel runways does make one sensitive to the importance of flying the heading accurately when one is assigned. The same can be true of flying out of Palwaukee (Executive?) or other fringe airports when controllers are vectoring traffic out of Midway and O'Hare. The instruction to fly a certain heading is seldom beneficial to the pilot getting the instruction (except to keep him alive) but it may be necessary for separation for operations out of another airport.

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When I asked the original question, what heading to fly when instructed to "fly runway heading", I had no idea it would generate this much discussion. 

There is a wide gap in knowledge and experience between a light sport qualified pilot and an ATP qualified pilot but they both fly under the same basic FAA rules. I know, not IN IFR conditions for the light sport pilot but that's not the point.

The discussion here has been excellent and has covered the topic quite well.  Let me summarize:

When assigned "fly runway heading"  your takeoff brief should cover the actual magnetic heading of the runway and if you have a heading bug, it should be set to that heading prior to taking the runway.  That should not be hard to find because anytime your not completely familiar with the airport your taking off from, you should have the airport diagram in front of you.  Upon taking the runway, as Jim pointed out, you should verify that your instruments and heading bug align with the runway.  If it doesn't, then make appropriate adjustments as Ed stated or taxi back for maintenance if there is a wide margin of error.  As you fly runway heading, if the controller doesn't like the results he can modify his clearance but that's not for you to second guess.  It does  become more critical during parallel runway operations and of course, actual IFR conditions which as a light sport pilot, you would not be flying anyhow.

For the sport pilot, flying can be complicated at first.  This forum provides building blocks.

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Let me summarize:

 

When assigned "fly runway heading"  your takeoff brief should cover the actual magnetic heading of the runway and if you have a heading bug, it should be set to that heading prior to taking the runway.  That should not be hard to find because anytime your not completely familiar with the airport your taking off from, you should have the airport diagram in front of you.  Upon taking the runway, as Jim pointed out, you should verify that your instruments and heading bug align with the runway.  If it doesn't, then make appropriate adjustments as Ed stated or taxi back for maintenance if there is a wide margin of error.  As you fly runway heading, if the controller doesn't like the results he can modify his clearance but that's not for you to second guess.  It does  become more critical during parallel runway operations and of course, actual IFR conditions which as a light sport pilot, you would not be flying anyhow.

For the sport pilot, flying can be complicated at first.  This forum provides building blocks.

 

Excellent overview, thanks for recapping Duane.

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Precisely!  The wind will 'push' you along a ground track deviating from the actual runway.so flying the runway heading will not result in flying the runway itself.

 

When ATC gives you a heading they are not NECESSARILY giving you a heading corrected for wind.  That's why flying the ground track is the correct procedure.  The problem comes for guys that only have a directional gyro or heading indicator and are not computing wind correction on the fly.  For we who have glass and a GPS source we can simply fly the ground track indicator on the HSI.

 

As was noted by the ATC convo. the controller admits that they 'correct' courses when they observe pilots deviating.  Thats happening because guys are not flying the ground track when they have a cross wind. 

 

no.gif

 

You have now latched onto 2 controllers that suggest  your point has merit but there is only one correct way to fly an assigned heading and that is to fly the heading without wind correction. mad2.gif

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When ATC gives you a heading they are not NECESSARILY giving you a heading corrected for wind.  That's why flying the ground track is the correct procedure.  The problem comes for guys that only have a directional gyro or heading indicator and are not computing wind correction on the fly.  For we who have glass and a GPS source we can simply fly the ground track indicator on the HSI.

You have it completely backwards. The system was designed and set up for aircraft with only a heading indicator, and the majority of the aircraft flying in it are still that way. When ATC assigns a heading they want you flying it the same way as everyone else, and not being some jackleg in the system doing it their own way.

 

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No.  You originally said ATC gives you wind correction in the heading assignment.

 

Nobody said any such thing.  What people have been trying to tell you is wind correction is IRRELEVANT when flying a heading.  Remember that thing called "relative wind" that affects all aircraft?  Headings are assigned to maintain separation from other aircraft.  If I as a controller tell one to fly 180 and another 5 miles away laterally and flying opposite direction to fly 360, and there is a 60kt wind from 090...how much correction does anybody need to apply to maintain separation?  

 

NONE.  the wind affects both aircraft the same, and no correction is needed.  Now, if Captain Jackleg (had to steal that one, Tom) decides to do it his own way and add wind correction to his course "to be more accurate", for separation ALL BETS ARE OFF, because there is no longer heading as a common frame of reference for all participants, both aircraft and ATC.  Nobody knows WTF Capt. Jackleg is doing except him, and they therefore cannot predict where his airplane will go.  If he is the downwind airplane, he is going to crab into the wind and DECREASE separation, potentially leading to a head-on midair collision, because he was just too damn stubborn to do it the way everybody else is doing it and expects him to.

 

What a hero Capt. Jackleg is then. 

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I did say exactly that, ATC provides the wind correction. If they need you to fly 270 but there is a north wind they might give you 275.  They don't tell you that wind correction is included.

 

We have unearthed at least 2 controllers, 1 by cross post and one by anecdote that are not on the correct page, that changes nothing, fly the heading when assigned a heading to fly.  Fly the runway heading when assigned to do so.  

 

When departing a parallel it makes sense to clarify, since not every controller is on the right page.

 

 

No.  You originally said ATC gives you wind correction in the heading assignment.  They may try to do that but they cannot because they don't really know WHAT wind you have...no winds aloft forecast can give them that.  That is why you are given heading corrections as you fly, because they see you deviating from where they want yo to go, and you are not correcting for your crosswind. 

 

I fly the GPS ground track so I never get a callback.  And I even use my TRK+ALT autopilot to maintain both heading and altitude on the VFR corridors which makes sure the plane tracks the prescribed heading and altitude defined for those corridors.

 

ATC might guess the winds wrong and that's ok.  At least its wrong for everyone so you won't drift into traffic and ATC can see the results and correct it.

 

One more time, in the corridors or anytime you are providing your own navigation, use correction.

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In my experience (Instrument rated private pilot), the controller will often ask "Report your heading" - after that when given the instruction "Fly radar heading xyz" they have made the correction they want having seen your TRACK on their screen.

It would be completely wrong to interpret their instruction as "Fly Track xyz"

 

Interestingly when doing procedure turns you are supposed to fly the track indicated on the chart and of course you have no indication with classic instruments of how near (or far) you are from the that track - now that is where I would use the GPS - LOL

 

But I'm in agreement with Bill Ince - let's give it up - there's a great saying here in Lancashire "There's none so blind as won't see"

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There is no 'debate', unless you are being totally obtuse.

 

ATC assigns 'headings' or asks for your'heading', as read from your instruments. They might ask "Say heading". They're not asking for you GPS track or a wind corrected track. For a pilot to do anything other than provide their heading or comply with ATC's instructions is negligent, illegal and stupid.

 

There is no 'problem' to solve. It matters not a whit whether you have round dials or a plush glass display. Heading means…duuh, heading.

 

 On a windy day, for traffic separation ATC may ask for your heading, and then assign a further '20 degrees right'. They may say " for traffic turn 20 degrees right, what is that heading?". As previously said, in this regard ATC are correcting YOUR track in THEIR airspace, to account for wind and separation.

 

  When asking about headings ATC is doing it's job separating traffic. For you to provide inaccurate information is not only stupid it's dangerous.

 

 You can spout about tracks and glass panels, your smart GPS display etc etc…but in the first place you have to be a PILOT and be SAFE.

 

  There are, as mentioned, areas of airspace where track IS more important than heading, such as holding airspace and procedure turns. Holds are particularly sensitive because they are 'protected airspace'.

 

   There is no debate. Read the AIM, get proper training, and follow the rules. The fact that you think it's even debatable shows real ignorance.

 

If you have ANY doubt as to whether you should report your heading of GPS track when requested by ATC then you are a hazard to everyone in the air. The fact that ATC hasn't pulled you up on it is probably pure luck on your part.  Not so much for the rest of us poor saps that may be unlucky enough to share the same airspace as you.

 

Please….get some training!

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