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Ditching CTLS in Hawaii waters..


schurch379

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Just about everyone has probably seen the SR22 ditching by now off the NE Maui coast. This was a low wing airplane of course.

 

I fly over the ocean all the time from the Big Islandin my 2008 CTLS, which is obviously a high wing aircraft--I bought on the mainland, shipped to Hawaii in 2013, and it is perfect for Hawaii...

 

I would appreciate your opinions on this: if I had to face "ditching" in the ocean, I would certainly employ the BRS, BUT would I be better off opening the gull doors before impact, or keeping them shut until afterwards....???

 

On the one hand, if I opened the doors ahead of impact, the water would surely rush in right after impact, and the fuselage quickly become a 3+/- ft under water. Yet on the other hand, it would be relatively simple to disengage and get the heck out quickly, albeit perhaps holding one's breath for a brief period.

 

If, on theother hand, I kept the doors closed, then the plane would initially remain on top of the water, and there certainly would be a few moments after impact to gather senses, disengage, then get out. On the other hand, there might be a lot of water pressure resisting opening up, and there is an outside chance that the gull doors got stuck in the locked position & one / both not open easily after impact.

 

My instinct is to unlock ( but not raise ) the gull doors about halfway

 

Anyway...very interested in your opinions....

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schurch...take a look at the POH under emergency procedures.  they advise to unlock the doors.  they do not say to open them all the way.  the idea potentially is that the mechanism wont get jammed shut in the event of an impact.

 

it's probably the same for water landings.  just unlock them.  water is going to come in...not sure how fast, but likely pretty fast...so having the life raft ready, and your life jacket on will be paramount.

 

at least you know you wont be flipped over and possibly be unconscious (unless a midair happened and that might end up sans a chute pull anyway).  and you wont have your back broken on impact.

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Just about everyone has probably seen the SR22 ditching by now off the NE Maui coast. This was a low wing airplane of course.

 

I fly over the ocean all the time from the Big Islandin my 2008 CTLS, which is obviously a high wing aircraft--I bought on the mainland, shipped to Hawaii in 2013, and it is perfect for Hawaii...

 

I would appreciate your opinions on this: if I had to face "ditching" in the ocean, I would certainly employ the BRS, BUT would I be better off opening the gull doors before impact, or keeping them shut until afterwards....???

 

On the one hand, if I opened the doors ahead of impact, the water would surely rush in right after impact, and the fuselage quickly become a 3+/- ft under water. Yet on the other hand, it would be relatively simple to disengage and get the heck out quickly, albeit perhaps holding one's breath for a brief period.

 

If, on theother hand, I kept the doors closed, then the plane would initially remain on top of the water, and there certainly would be a few moments after impact to gather senses, disengage, then get out. On the other hand, there might be a lot of water pressure resisting opening up, and there is an outside chance that the gull doors got stuck in the locked position & one / both not open easily after impact.

 

My instinct is to unlock ( but not raise ) the gull doors about halfway

 

Anyway...very interested in your opinions....

I understand your concerns with the door.  I have always taught that you should unlock, and partially open your door and that of the passenger as well.  In addition you should place a light jacket or something to keep it from fully closing. 

 

Having said that,  I have not flown with the door open in the CTLS yet.  It may just open all the way in the slipstream.  If your riding the parachute down, it would be easy to reach out and keep it mostly closed. What you don't want is a closed door and structural damage on landing that prevents the door from opening.  You want to be able to exit as quickly as possible.

 

For more information please read the following.

 

https://www.uscg.mil/hq/cg5/cg534/SARfactsInfo/Ditching_WaterSurvivalAirventure08.ppt

 

When I flew around Alaska this summer in a CTLS I had my life vest on with survival equipment in it, and my Imperial survival suit ready to grab on the way out of the plane.  If it became necessary to ditch, I planed on having the door unlatched and partially open.  In high winds where I could achieve near zero ground (water) speed for touchdown, I did not plan on pulling the chute.  In all other cases I think the chute is the way to go.

 

Having seen several high wing airplanes enter the water, I can say some flip and some don't.  You should be good with a chute or water entry at zero ground speed.

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I think I would also open the door before splashdown in a high wing.   A C172 ditched a few miles from here in fresh water a year ago and the two on board couldn't open the doors.  They got out the window instead. See:

 

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/bulletins/september_2014/cessna_f172m__d_eese.cfm

 

 

If you keep the door open a CT will ship water as soon as it touches down.  I understand that most people are surprised by the force of the water flowing in when an aircraft (or car) ends up in the water.   Every instinct is to fight the inflow of water to get out, and in some cases the inability to get out against the inflowing  water induces panic.  It seems that waiting in the cockpit for a few seconds until the inflow slows and the pressures have equalized a bit will enable a much more controlled exit.  (It's easy to say but it might not be so easy to do in the event.) 

 

One thing I observed from the Cirrus ditching - if I ditched in strong winds, and the plane was being dragged along violently with my side into the waves, I would be ready to get out the other side.   The Cirrus pilot would have had a much harder time if his plane had been dragged the opposite way round.

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I agree IrishAl.  In the dilbert dunker, they teach to wait a moment, let the bubbles clear, collect yourself, then exit, then inflate the vest.  The "wait a moment" is only 3 or 4 seconds.

 

About the 172, that is exactly why you want the doors ajar.

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I have no experience with a water ditching, either real or simulated.

Duane - in the dunker, are you taught to grasp or be able to identify a structural member to help you stay oriented and retain situational awareness in respect to finding and exiting the door?

My initial impression is I'd use the BRS at altitude and open the doors all the way at about 100' up or whatever distance seemed dictated by the descent rate. I don't want to be in a position where the water pressure makes it hard to push the door up and open. Doors open in various manners and directions, varying from plane to plane. I'm not sure the CT door gives one a great way to get a purchase and leverage on it as compared with a door that would allow you to put a lot of pressure on the back side and open it to the front.

It may make a difference if I had to care for a passenger, such as a young child, a feeble person, someone in a panic, etc. I think then I'd be even more inclined to open the door so one had only to deal with the person rather than with the person and the recalcitrant door.

Is it worse to get a big splash of water immediately or have to push against the water pressure?

Would it make any difference if the door is open before hand if one flipped on entry?

I haven't watched the Cirrus ditching; I suppose I should.

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In the dilbert dunker they run you in the water on a set of rails then flip you upside down so your hanging in a harness.  You have to wait for the bubbles to clear, release your harness, swim clear, and then inflate your vest.  Your vest knows which way is up.

 

Not much water pressure on the door, I suspect.  I would still leave it just ajar.  If it takes a while for the water to get in around the just opened door, so much the better.  Once the pressure equalizes, it will be easy to egress. That gives you a little extra breathing time too.  If the plane is intact, and I think it will be,  It will float for quite a while.

 

The same day the Cirrus went down in Hawaii, a cessna 172 with four people in it landed in the Ocean 6 minutes short of land - out of gas.  All four people got out OK.

 

http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/27948126/owner-of-ditched-plane-off-oahu-praises-pilot-3-passengers-and-baby-survived-splash-landing-in-ocean

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post-440-0-08985600-1422852947_thumb.jpgI think this topic will be mostly made up of opinions since I don't know that there have been any real life ditchings in a CT, either SW  or LS. So I will add my opinion and tentative solution to the the list.

First I think that a CT in the water, either upright or inverted would take on water excessively fast with the doors open or ajar. There does not seem to be enough freeboard either right side up or upside down to allow it to float without water pouring in. That brings me to the conclusion that the doors have to stay closed and even latched for that matter until the bubbles clear. If they are unlatched any earlier they certainly will be blown open on impact and water will immediately rush in. If they are latched there is in my opinion a fighting chance that the thing will remain floating until the occupants have a chance to do certain things. As a side note remember that the thing will be floating nose down possibly at a rather steep angle either upside down or right side up. If it is upside down the doors then should open rather easily when everything comes to rest since the latch mechanism would be high above the water line. The occupants have to cut their seat belts most likely since  they are very tight from hanging on them. See my attached picture with the tool to cut the belts.

Then if the airplane comes to rest right side up and the doors are still latched take the tool which has a pointed hammer end and smash out the windshield to accomplish an exit. Also seat belts may need to be cut also since there is no guarantee that there will not be pressure on them that makes the normal release impossible or at least very difficult.

This tool is a pointed hammer and a protected  seat belt cutter which in my opinion is a necessary tool before further flight. Remember a landing on solid ground may necessitate beating out a window also.

Just my opinion but take a look at the pictures of my CT cabin next to my left knee, a halon fire extinguisher and the escape hammer.

Larry, Flying Bozo

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Very interesting post. 

 

I'm wondering how effective that tool would be in exiting through the windscreen.  Looks like its pointed head is for shattering car windows, which are designed to break up into little pieces with one impact.  However, the CT screen is not - it's as tough as old boots, as was demonstrated in the birdstrike post.

 

Does anyone know how difficult/easy it would be to break out enough of the windshield in a few seconds to climb out?  Also, would the windshield not be partially submerged, bringing a flood of water in that way?

 

My biggest concern with keeping the doors closed would be not being able to open them if needed - see my previous post.

I think I'd rather be underwater in a few short seconds but with the door open, than wait for the cockpit to fill up slowly before I could actually get the door open to exit.

 

Anyone got any experience of this tool?

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When I made my post, I should have postulated that I'd be coming down in a level orientation under the chute. I'm not sure the chances of flipping in that event, but my unstated assumption was that I'd land and stay right side up.

I have no idea how long a CT would float with various tank fill states.

One has to be confident that a needed tool is available; that it has not broken free and flown to the farthest point of the cabin and that the person who needs to use it is conscious and able to employ it.

There are probably a number of different water entry situations that can/need to be anticipated.

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