End of LSA

[Al Downs]

Maybe it's just me but I was livid when my local EAA Chapter published the attached file titled End of the LSA in the monthly newsletter.

 

The title and first paragraph made me so upset I could not concentrate on the rest of the arrticle that was not really connected to his initial statement.

 

I fired of an email to the Chapter President and then put to together a rebutal which I titled End of LSA. REALLY. I don't think they will publish the rebutal but I vented and feel better. I still don't understand how someone so involved in Young Eagles as the author is would take this stance.

 

Read them and see what you think.

 

 

End of LSA.docx

End of the LSA really.docx

[gbigs]

What's to be upset about?  He tries to make the same tired and false point that a 40 year old plane with steam gauges (and even older design) is the same as a new S-LSA factory built with Dynon Skyviews and Garmin nav.  It's a nonsense comparison.

 

New factory built S-LSA are in a particular price/value niche...$120k to $190k dependent on how they are loaded.  Factory new certifieds have no offerings below $200k (to get the other two seats).  The avionics in the S-LSA are far superior to what the certified guys can get.  I know, I am shopping in the certified market and am really tired of the G1000 and it's 12 year old antiquated push button style-glass and nested menu structure.  The G3X and Dynon touch are FAR superior to the G1000.

 

And the Cessna Skycatcher didn't die because it cost $155k.  It died because it was an antiquated design (a mini 172), was cramped, clunky, had no parachute, no visibility and burned 100LL.  It couldn't compete with the much sleeker, more nimble, wider, higher visibility, more agile Flight Design CT and the ability to burn mogas.  

 

Still, S-LSA sales will get hurt if the number of sport pilots goes down, as will happen if the FAA changes the 3rd class medical.  Whether that is enough to deal a death blow remains to be seen....

[Jim]

Yawn.

 

As a CT owner, I don't have much to say about the Skycatcher.  I do know a little about the Cessna 150/152 and how much I prefer flying my CT to them.  My CT cost $97K back when I bought it.  I learned to fly in it, it takes me where I want to go and it is really fun and cheap to fly.  Regardless of the possible 3rd class medical changes, I still think there's a market for under $150k light sport aircraft.  Why a relatively prestigious organization would print such a one-sided and ignorant opinion baffles me.

[FredG]

Al, thanks for writing a rebuttal to the comments offered in the "End of LSA" document.  Mostly it was a rant about China, which seems to be off the topic of LSA.  Oddly enough, I am typing this on a very high quality computer that was built in China.  

[FastEddieB]

Silly, slanted article and a nicely done, concise response.

 

My biggest gripe of the original article, the blanket condemnation of Chinese quality.

 

"China’s record in manufacturing is suspect, even for children’s products. “Quality Control” seems to be more “What can we get away with?” rather than “Have we delivered a good product?”"

 

Some of the finest, durable and elegant consumer electronics come out of China. Just look at an iPad, iPhone or equivalent Samsung device.

 

In any case, this will all sort out - one way or another!

[Tom Baker]

An idiot without a clue. You are correct that your reply will likely not be published, especially if he takes care of the newsletter. I'm curious if this was posted to a website where others can offer a reply?

[Ian]

Certainly the author's prejudice against China shines through - I hope he never flies commercial in a Boeing or an Airbus!!

 

http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20141111/BLOG01/141119746

 

He seems to have a bit of a King Canute complex (he's the one who couldn't stop the tide coming in!!)

[gbigs]

The slam was not on China.  He tried to assert that the death of the Skycatcher AND the 3rd class medical change are combining to kill LSA. 

 

China now owns Mooney, Continental (and Theilert), Cirrus, Mattituck Services. Superior AirParts, Brantly, and Enstrom Helicopters, half of ICON, licensed owners of Epic jets, half of European makers and soon Cessna itself.  CAC (Commericail Aviation Company of China) is making commercial jets to compete head to head with Boeing and Airbus now.  Heck, Boeing is even outsourcing to China for it's own products and predicts China will be a larger aviation market than the US in two years.

 

Anyone upset with the Chinese in aviation is doomed to 40 year old relics and buying replacement parts made in China.

[Doug G.]

I learned in a Skycatcher. I don't remember anything that might be considered a quality issue, the real issues were 1) engineering - doors blowing off, plywood floorboards, and 2) price, which put a lesser plane in the same price range (similarly equipped) as the CTLS. For buyers it was a no brainer.

[Al Downs]

My rebuttal was sent to the President of the Chapter and he replied by asking for some pictures. He would then send it to the person in charge of the newsletter. We will see if it gets into the April newsletter. I will keep you posted.

[Jim Meade]

Many of us like LSA (as in ELSA and SLSA) because it is much easier to attain a certificate to sign them off them than it is to get an A&P and IA certificate needed for a standard certificated airplane.

[Anticept]

I think they forget that people like LSAs. It is just another type of certificate for an aircraft, but other than that, they are still airplanes.

 

When the 3rd class rec exemption happens, LSA will slow down, but it won't go away. If we look around the world, there are a lot of LSAs sold; the US doesn't exist in a bubble.

[gbigs]

I think they forget that people like LSAs. It is just another type of certificate for an aircraft, but other than that, they are still airplanes.

 

When the 3rd class rec exemption happens, LSA will slow down, but it won't go away. If we look around the world, there are a lot of LSAs sold; the US doesn't exist in a bubble.

 

Good couple of points.  FD sells a lot of planes in Europe and Australia.  And no doubt will do well in China.  What will likely happen is the 30 or so makers will dwindle to 3 and FD will still lead that pack.

 

When you look closely at the value proposition FD is making an expensive, sophisticated Ferrari-like two-seater with safety, avionics and quality found in much more expensive aircraft.  A leader in it's class.

 

Trying to compare a new factory made plane to a 50 year old Piper or Cessna is inconsistent and useless.  One can compare a brand new Ferrari to a 20 year old Honda Civic on a similar basis because are cars, but no one would find that useful either.  

 

 FD is right in the sweet spot if you want a high-end plane in it's class.  Even if FORCED to fly a two seater due to a medical issue.

[Al Downs]

To Tom Baker. It can be found on the EAA 838 website under newsletters. I don't think there is a way to leave comments./

[FastEddieB]

Talked with a friend today with an RV.

 

I mentioned that if this whole thing came to pass, I might consider another Grumman Tiger.

 

But...

 

...it would absolutely have to be in a partnership with someone I knew and trusted with an A&P. For obvious reasons.

 

But again, not holding my breath.

 

And anyway, the whole Sky Arrow experience is so unique I can't imagine giving that up easily.

[FredG]

Very happy with my E-LSA and my 16 hour inspector's certificate.  

[Roger Lee]

If they take away the medical they may take away some privileges like the SLSA has. Night flights, over 10K??

 

I'm not sure what the final reg. will be, but it may end up being one of those be careful what you wish for things.

[FlyingMonkey]

It's funny to talk about CTs as "high end" when they are some of the cheapest and slowest factory built two seat airplanes around. More like a Miata than a Ferrari. If you want a Ferrari, you need to look at something like a Bear 360.

[Anticept]

It's funny to talk about CTs as "high end" when they are some of the cheapest and slowest factory built two seat airplanes around. More like a Miata than a Ferrari. If you want a Ferrari, you need to look at something like a Bear 360.

 

A radial engine! A rare find indeed, that's a side of recips that I don't have a lot of info about. We worked on radials a little at school, but didn't get too deep into it. I would love to see the inside of one rather than just poke at the shell.

[gbigs]

It's funny to talk about CTs as "high end" when they are some of the cheapest and slowest factory built two seat airplanes around. More like a Miata than a Ferrari. If you want a Ferrari, you need to look at something like a Bear 360.

 

The FD CTLSi is the most sophisticated of all S-LSA and as factory aircraft go as finished and as ergonomically well designed as any made.  And the Dynon glass, autopilot, ADS-B in/out, XM radio and Garmin touch screen nav are superior to the avionics in the larger planes costing hundreds of thousands more...

 

And even more astounding is the 912iS has FADEC and fuel injection (no carbs,no synching, no ice, no choke, no mixture work, no LOP or ROP work).  Nothing is more advanced for piston aircraft except having a turbo.  And the 912iS sport upgrade even adds a higher airflow unit to gain higher torque, climb and even more fuel efficiency than version one of the CTLSi.

 

Among the 4-seat certifieds, have you flown or sat in a new Cirrus ($830k), Mooney Acclaim ($850k) or worse, a Cessna 172 ($500k) or 182 ($600k)?  These planes have G1000s, 14 year old glass.  And none of these planes are as wide (50 versus 44).  The high wings are all strutted.  And only the Cirrus and Mooney can climb as fast as FDCT at sea level.  And the Cessna 172 is about the same KTAS cruise as CTLSi.  Yet they all burn five times or more fuel, cost five to eight times more and none of them can burn much cheaper Mogas.  And ONLY the Cirrus has a chute and only ADS-B out...so you are forced to pay a subscription to get weather in it!

 

Though the CTLSi is 120ktas cruise and the certifieds are much higher around 170 to 220ktas, the Cessnas are much slower of course, none can match the economy of 4gph mogas at cruise.  The CTLSi even beats a car for fuel efficiency and at much higher speeds (150mph).

 

You do know that there are small sports cars with the same or higher sophistication as the large road beasts, right?

 

(fun note: I saw a brand new Cirrus SR22T (10 hrs tt) sitting on the ramp without a prop.  The owner apparently sucked a road cone the ramp crew set in front of it when it was parked at McCarran and he didn't notice it till he started the plane.  That cone broke the prop and cause the crank to be pulled for inspection (after a costly dismantle and towing from McCarran to KVGT).  Did you know the CTLS reduction gear box has a release clutch that disengages the prop from the crank in case of a prop strike or a situation like the cone?  It saves the engine....not even the $870k Cirrus has that!)

[Jacques]

Did you know the CTLS reduction gear box has a release clutch that disengages the prop from the crank in case of a prop strike or a situation like the cone?  It saves the engine....not even the $870k Cirrus has that!)

wow,,I didn't know it had a different gearbox than the other 912ULS

[Roger Lee]

Hi Al,

Send this to your author. tell him he should get better informed before he publishes.

 

So much for the LSA demise:

 

 

FAA Forecast Mixed For GA
By Mary Grady


The FAA this week released its annual aviation forecast for the next 20 years, predicting growth for the turbine and rotorcraft fleets but downturns in sales of most fixed-wing piston airplanes. The business jet market grew in 2014 for the first time since 2008, and the forecast predicts "robust growth" in that sector over the long term, driven by higher corporate profits and the growth of worldwide GDP. The number of rotorcraft is expected to increase at a rate of 2.5 percent per year, and fixed-wing turbine aircraft will increase by 2.2 percent per year. The fixed-wing piston fleet is expected to decline by 0.6 percent per year, according to the FAA's estimates, but the light sport aircraft fleet will grow 4.3 percent per year, to a total of 5,360 LSAs flying by 2035.

Business use of GA piston aircraft is expected to grow faster than personal or recreational use, according to the forecast (PDF). Both student pilots and private pilots are expected to decrease at an annual rate of 0.3 percent, but the FAA expects the number of sport pilots to grow. As of the end of 2014, the number of sport pilot certificates issued was 5,157, reflecting steady growth since the sport pilot certificate was created in 2005. By 2035, the FAA said it expects a total of 14,950 sport pilots will be certified.

_________________

[FlyingMonkey]

 

Among the 4-seat certifieds, have you flown or sat in a new Cirrus ($830k), Mooney Acclaim ($850k) or worse, a Cessna 172 ($500k) or 182 ($600k)?  These planes have G1000s, 14 year old glass.  And none of these planes are as wide (50 versus 44).  The high wings are all strutted.  And only the Cirrus and Mooney can climb as fast as FDCT at sea level.  And the Cessna 172 is about the same KTAS cruise as CTLSi.  Yet they all burn five times or more fuel, cost five to eight times more and none of them can burn much cheaper Mogas.  And ONLY the Cirrus has a chute and only ADS-B out...so you are forced to pay a subscription to get weather in it!

 

 

Sure I have been in those airplanes.  But you are the one that brought up Ferrari.  That's a very high performance, prestige brand.  No LSA can be considered a "prestige" airplane, in the grand scheme of things.  And certainly none is a very high performance airplane.  The "old style" Cirrus is 40 knots faster than a CT, and the Acclaim is probably 80+ knots faster.

 

Ferraris usually don't have all the wiz-bang comfort gizmos like heated seats.  Some models don't even have a heater.  Does that make them shitty cars?  Is the Miata better because you can get those things in one?

 

 

 

(fun note: I saw a brand new Cirrus SR22T (10 hrs tt) sitting on the ramp without a prop.  The owner apparently sucked a road cone the ramp crew set in front of it when it was parked at McCarran and he didn't notice it till he started the plane.  That cone broke the prop and cause the crank to be pulled for inspection (after a costly dismantle and towing from McCarran to KVGT).  Did you know the CTLS reduction gear box has a release clutch that disengages the prop from the crank in case of a prop strike or a situation like the cone?  It saves the engine....not even the $870k Cirrus has that!)

 

Apples and oranges.  The Cirrus doesn't have a gearbox at all because it's direct drive!  Should Cirrus add the weight and expense of a gearbox it doesn't need in order to save a prop when a pilot wrecks the airplane?  That sounds like saying Ferrari should design their cars to save the engine in a crash.  You don't design vehicles to save themselves in a crash, you design them to save people in a crash. 

 

Sorry, the reality is you fly a Miata level airplane.  Nothing wrong with that, the Miata/CTs are fine cars/planes.  But don't be one of "those guys" that gets on the Miata forums and talks about all the ways their Miata is better than a Ferrari.  Totally different cars with different missions and vastly different performance and price points.

[gbigs]

Sure I have been in those airplanes.  But you are the one that brought up Ferrari.  That's a very high performance, prestige brand.  No LSA can be considered a "prestige" airplane, in the grand scheme of things.  And certainly none is a very high performance airplane.  The "old style" Cirrus is 40 knots faster than a CT, and the Acclaim is probably 80+ knots faster.

 

Ferraris usually don't have all the wiz-bang comfort gizmos like heated seats.  Some models don't even have a heater.  Does that make them shitty cars?  Is the Miata better because you can get those things in one?

 

 

Apples and oranges.  The Cirrus doesn't have a gearbox at all because it's direct drive!  Should Cirrus add the weight and expense of a gearbox it doesn't need in order to save a prop when a pilot wrecks the airplane?  That sounds like saying Ferrari should design their cars to save the engine in a crash.  You don't design vehicles to save themselves in a crash, you design them to save people in a crash. 

 

Sorry, the reality is you fly a Miata level airplane.  Nothing wrong with that, the Miata/CTs are fine cars/planes.  But don't be one of "those guys" that gets on the Miata forums and talks about all the ways their Miata is better than a Ferrari.  Totally different cars with different missions and vastly different performance and price points.

 

 

You miss the point.  Ferrari is metaphor referring to it's sophistication and wow-factor.  The FD CTLSi is the Ferrari of S-LSA  and even compares above far more expensive aircraft in avionics, climb and fuel economy.  The ONLY difference is KTAS.  The FD CTLSi is more comfortable, safer, is more sophisticated (latest tech in skin and panel) and far less expensive.  In marketing and value parlance, that's called a win.

[FlyingMonkey]

You miss the point.  Ferrari is metaphor referring to it's sophistication and wow-factor.  The FD CTLSi is the Ferrari of S-LSA  and even compares above far more expensive aircraft in avionics, climb and fuel economy.  The ONLY difference is KTAS.  The FD CTLSi is more comfortable, safer, is more sophisticated (latest tech in skin and panel) and far less expensive.  In marketing and value parlance, that's called a win.

 

You are changing the goal posts.  You first claim the CT(LSi) is the Ferrari of airplanes, then when I point out the error you claim it's actually the Ferrari of S-LSA.  If you back up one more step and claim the CTLSi is the Ferrari of CTs, then I can see your point.

 

The only advantage a Ferrari has over many other cars is in speed as well.  But it's a pretty important advantage that costs a lot.