BobJones Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 Andy, I think we have had this discussion many times, and people will not all agree, but I prefer to fly a pattern and approach appropriate for the conditions, the airport, and the airplane. If landing on a 2000 foot uncontrolled grass strip with no traffic, I would fly a very different approach than if landing on an 8000 foot controlled airport with jet traffic ahead and behind me. At Oshkosh, I would hold 90 knots as long as possible and maintain the proper distance from the plane ahead. If he starts slowing down early, you'll need to slow down early. If he maintains 90 knots down to the runway, you can maintain 90 knots until you must slow down to land at the proper spot. Remember, any single airplane that slows down the approach and landing sequence will create lost landing capacity for the rest of the day. PS: I have been to Oshkosh. Here is a suggestion: Go out to your airport and fly some large patterns holding 90 knots all the way down the final approach until about 1/2 mile out, then chop the throttle. See how far you go down the runway until you slow down and where you land. Try this with no flaps to landing and then other flap settings. In other words, get comfortable with all different approach speeds and flap settings and know how far you can carry 90 knots and still land on your spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbigs Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 It sounds like Oshkosh has planes flying straight in at high speed and landing them staggered one in front of the other due to wake turbulence. Morden will have to sharpen his pencil and definitely practice using less runway at a higher speed if he is gonna succeed it appears. Its a good thing the FD needs little runway to land, but the downside is it is also a small plane and is affected by wake turbulence more than many other aircraft. Just remember Morden, as PIC you have the final say over safety for your aircraft. If you are instructed to land and feel it unsafe, go around, even in a controlled airport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WmInce Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 . . . I have a private pilots license, Morden is a sport pilot. . . . Why don't you give your unjustified arrogance a rest and sit on your hands for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 Not that your nonsense deserves a reply, but I have a private pilots license, Morden is a sport pilot. But Morden is asking the questions, and you appear troubled by those trying to help him and offer answers. So be it... You really have no idea of what it is like, so unless you have flown into Oshkosh while the fly-in NOTAM is in effect you should not be offering advice on how to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WmInce Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 So, as a Private Pilot, what did you learn that a Sport Pilot did not learn other than a little night flying and maybe a little instrument flying? I would not hesitate to climb in an airplane with Andy. I would not get near an airplane you are flying. Attitude has as much to do with being a safe pilot as anything. Narcissism and flying do not mix well. BINGO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted May 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 Thanks for the responses everybody. All the advice really helps, and my intention is to go out and practice "hot" approaches trying to slow down as late in the game as possible. I know it will all work out, but always best to ask these questions before needing the answers! BobJones, I know we don't always get along, but I was not trying to be snarky or negative with you and I do respect your experience and opinions. The internet does not always convey tone and intent well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobJones Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 The internet does not always convey tone and intent well. I know that's true. We would probably be friends if we ever met in person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobJones Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 Andy, is your wife going with you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted May 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 Andy, is your wife going with you? No, we have two dogs, one is a "special needs" dog, and that makes it hard for us to both be away that long. I have a buddy of mine that drove to OSH with me last year who will be right seat. He doesn't have a license yet but has solo'ed a CTSW, so he's a perfect pax for this trip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 Andy, As a quick recap... Though the entire procedure into Oshkosh may seem complex, it's really rather simple when broken down into its component parts. Can you maintain altitude within about 100'? Of course you can, any competent Sport or Private Pilot should be able to do that. Can you maintain a given airspeed within a few knots? Of course you can, any competent Sport or Private Pilot should be able to do that. Can you fly a desired ground path, defined by GPS waypoints? Of course you can, any competent Sport or Private Pilot should be able to do that. The third is a what makes the procedure infinitely easier than it used to be - just plug in waypoints and follow the magenta line. It sounds like your main concern is getting slowed down from approach to landing speed. Just get out and practice that and it really should not be a problem - I'll bet you're a lot more competent than a lot of the more "experienced", but complacent, pilots flying into Oshkosh. I do recommend guarding against two "gotchas": 1) In spite of what somebody said in this thread it is not at all like being in Class Bravo airspace. In general, they do not want you transmitting on the radio at all, unless specifically requested or in an emergency. We are all kind of wired to respond to instructions on the radio, and I found it was quite difficult not to. 2) When you land on the dot, your job is not completed. Be sure to understand what's required of you in terms of the in-cockpit signage to get you where you want to go and follow those directions exactly. A lot of pilots screw up on the ground, in spite of having done everything perfectly in the air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 Andy, FWIW, I'm going into the Ultralight field if/when I go back to Oshkosh. Three reasons: 1. I'll be landing with low and slow aircraft. Just slow things down. No 90 kt approach speeds needed here. 2. Our CTSW's are ideal for short field landing and takeoff's at a field like this. 3. You'll be in the heart of Oshkosh if you lland and park at the Ultralight field. No long bus rides from the outer fields. Check out the instructions for Ultralight. As a S-LSA, our CT's are included in the aircraft allowed to land here. (cursor down on the website for details). Put the coordinates in your Garmin and once there, follow highway 26 or 41 into the ultralight field. http://www.eaa.org/en/airventure/eaa-fly-in-flying-to-oshkosh/ultralight-arrivals/ultralight-flight-pattern-overview Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 Can you fly a desired ground path, defined by GPS waypoints? Of course you can, any competent Sport or Private Pilot should be able to do that. The third is a what makes the procedure infinitely easier than it used to be - just plug in waypoints and follow the magenta line. I don't completely agree with this. While having the waypoints plugged in ahead of time is a good thing. When flying the procedure I think you should be flying the landmarks with your head outside the airplane and on a swivel. While the railroad is close it is not a direct line between Ripon and Fisk, and you never know which way they will send you to the airport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 Andy The Oshkosh arrival is fairly simple after you get the jitters behind you. Understand the rules, study the landmarks, get in line, listen to radio, look outside with hand on throttle, follow aircraft ahead, land where instructed, get off runway, show sign for parking, congratulate yourself, enjoy show. Keep head outside airplane whenever engine is running. The only issue I have every had was on a departure. Traffic was called out "B-17 at twelve oclock opposite direction at our altitude" I turn a little left then climbed to 8500 feet and turned east to cross lake Michigan. First time is toughest, every time worth the effort. Best practice I can suggest would be getting in traffic with several aircraft doing touch and go's on same runway. You will be fine. Have nice day, week, life! Farmer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 I don't completely agree with this. While having the waypoints plugged in ahead of time is a good thing. When flying the procedure I think you should be flying the landmarks with your head outside the airplane and on a swivel. While the railroad is close it is not a direct line between Ripon and Fisk, and you never know which way they will send you to the airport. Agreed. I guess my point was its a lot harder to get completely disoriented than it was in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted May 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 Thanks Eddie, I was already planning my signage to *not* screw up the ground portion. I don't think flying the procedure is a problem. As stated, my main goal is to not be "that guy" that screws up other pilots. Dick, I will look into the ultralight field and give it strong consideration. You make some good points. Is ultralight parking along the runway as I have seen planes sitting there before, or is there a field or other area where I could park and not have the CT be a collision magnet for landing airplanes? Thanks Farmer, I think it will be fun. How close did you get to that B-17? Close enough for a good view? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobJones Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 Andy, I really don't think you will have any problems. Because of this thread, I have downloaded the 2015 Oshkosh NOTAM and read over it multiple times. It seems pretty simple actually. If you have a "co-pilot" who can read the instructions as you fly the plane and look for traffic, I think you'll do fine. Just get out there and practice those 90 knot approaches and landings from zero flaps to full flaps and everything in between. Chances are, you'll slow down to maintain separation from the plane ahead of you and it will be a moot point. As a result of this discussion, I have asked my Mooney friend if he wants to fly the Mooney to Oshkosh. Every time we have discussed it, we talked about landing somewhere else, but landing at Oshkosh with today's procedures and tools, doesn't seem like a big deal if you have done your homework. By the way, I lived 10 miles from OSH for 5 years from 1975 to 1980. Got my MBA from University Of Wisconsin - Oshkosh while I was there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 Andy, I really don't think you will have any problems. Because of this thread, I have downloaded the 2015 Oshkosh NOTAM and read over it multiple times. It seems pretty simple actually. If you have a "co-pilot" who can read the instructions as you fly the plane and look for traffic, I think you'll do fine. Just get out there and practice those 90 knot approaches and landings from zero flaps to full flaps and everything in between. Chances are, you'll slow down to maintain separation from the plane ahead of you and it will be a moot point. As a result of this discussion, I have asked my Mooney friend if he wants to fly the Mooney to Oshkosh. Every time we have discussed it, we talked about landing somewhere else, but landing at Oshkosh with today's procedures and tools, doesn't seem like a big deal if you have done your homework. By the way, I lived 10 miles from OSH for 5 years from 1975 to 1980. Got my MBA from University Of Wisconsin - Oshkosh while I was there. You could join the Mooney caravan mass arrival at Oshkosh. It might be fun and interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted May 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 Andy, I really don't think you will have any problems. Because of this thread, I have downloaded the 2015 Oshkosh NOTAM and read over it multiple times. It seems pretty simple actually. If you have a "co-pilot" who can read the instructions as you fly the plane and look for traffic, I think you'll do fine. Just get out there and practice those 90 knot approaches and landings from zero flaps to full flaps and everything in between. Chances are, you'll slow down to maintain separation from the plane ahead of you and it will be a moot point. As a result of this discussion, I have asked my Mooney friend if he wants to fly the Mooney to Oshkosh. Every time we have discussed it, we talked about landing somewhere else, but landing at Oshkosh with today's procedures and tools, doesn't seem like a big deal if you have done your homework. By the way, I lived 10 miles from OSH for 5 years from 1975 to 1980. Got my MBA from University Of Wisconsin - Oshkosh while I was there. I think you're right, the NOTAM is pretty simple when you break it down. Just have it printed and be ready to execute the approach/runway they call out for you. Definitely will practice the 90kt approaches. Probably not an issue since before I learned good speed control in the CTSW I'd hit 90kts on downwind anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobJones Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 Do you need to make any kind of reservation to attend Oshkosh and camp with your airplane or is it first come first served? Is there somewhere you could fly to and camp if Oshkosh is full? I looked at Google Earth today and the Oshkosh photos show what looks to be 1000's of planes parked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted May 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 Do you need to make any kind of reservation to attend Oshkosh and camp with your airplane or is it first come first served? Is there somewhere you could fly to and camp if Oshkosh is full? I looked at Google Earth today and the Oshkosh photos show what looks to be 1000's of planes parked. Are you sure that image was taken today? Fond Du Lac is the relief airport, they have camping an a shuttle to OSH. We will be getting there the Sunday before the show, I'd be surprised if it's full by then. We are camping with other friends in the big off-airport camp site, I really just need a parking slot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 I think camping is OK most places except the area for show plane parking. Sometimes the field is closed except for show aircraft. When this happens you will have to go to one of the reliever airports, they are listed in the NOTAM. Depending on the age of your friends Mooney you might be able to park in the classic area, and camp with the airplane. If the airplane was built before December 31, 1970 you would be considered a show plane. You don't have to be judged. Parking for these aircraft is on the South end of the field and camping is available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobJones Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 Are you sure that image was taken today? Fond Du Lac is the relief airport, they have camping an a shuttle to OSH. We will be getting there the Sunday before the show, I'd be surprised if it's full by then. We are camping with other friends in the big off-airport camp site, I really just need a parking slot. No, it wasn't taken today. I looked at it today. It was taken last year or before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobJones Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 I think camping is OK most places except the area for show plane parking. Sometimes the field is closed except for show aircraft. When this happens you will have to go to one of the reliever airports, they are listed in the NOTAM. Depending on the age of your friends Mooney you might be able to park in the classic area, and camp with the airplane. If the airplane was built before December 31, 1970 you would be considered a show plane. You don't have to be judged. Parking for these aircraft is on the South end of the field and camping is available. It's a 1968 M20C with new paint, new interior, new panel, and lots of 201 mods. I see the EAA site has all the details. I thought about taking the SkyCatcher if he doesn't want to go, but that would cost over $1,600 just for the plane. I don't want to spend that much just on one trip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobJones Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 I just joined EAA in case we decide to go. One of you must be a member to camp with your airplane. Airplane camping is not by reservation, but first come first served. There is a 3 night minimum and it looks to be $26 per night. Admission of $28 per day for EAA member plus $28 for one guest. Or, the full week is $116 each. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobJones Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 It sounds like Oshkosh has planes flying straight in at high speed and landing them staggered one in front of the other due to wake turbulence. Morden will have to sharpen his pencil and definitely practice using less runway at a higher speed if he is gonna succeed it appears. Its a good thing the FD needs little runway to land, but the downside is it is also a small plane and is affected by wake turbulence more than many other aircraft. Just remember Morden, as PIC you have the final say over safety for your aircraft. If you are instructed to land and feel it unsafe, go around, even in a controlled airport. It has nothing to do with wake turbulence. It's about landing 1000's of airplanes as quickly and efficiently as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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