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Thinking of Flying to Oshkosh


FlyingMonkey

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Hey all...

 

I have a couple of friends who are flying to Oshkosh this year, in a Waiex (Y-Tailed Sonex) and a Vari-EZ.  One of these guys has gone to Oshkosh many times, the other is a n00b like me.  They mentioned I could join them for the trip in my CTSW, and I'm considering it.

 

I've read the NOTAM very carefully.  The individual elements of the arrival procedure are pretty simple, but I can see when all put together it could get kind of overwhelming.  On the other hand, something like 15,000 pilots do it every year, so it can't be THAT hard.  They are not all rocket scientists (though some probably are!)...

 

What do ya'll think?

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Go for it!  Been there many times, first in 1974.  Understand the notam, then just fly down the railroad track and do what your told.  My only advice would be to practice your spot landings.  They paint big colored dots on the runway and tell you which one to put down on.  The closer you can hit the dot, the better for everybody.  

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Go for it!  Been there many times, first in 1974.  Understand the notam, then just fly down the railroad track and do what your told.  My only advice would be to practice your spot landings.  They paint big colored dots on the runway and tell you which one to put down on.  The closer you can hit the dot, the better for everybody.  

 

Thanks Jack!  I know they want you to maintain 90kts until pretty late, when can you slow down?  When starting the descent, turning base, later?

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Don't go alone. You will be a little nervous your first time and a second set of eyes will help a lot. Try to arrive early in the morning when it is a little slower. If you can find a ride to Fisk where they are on the ground you will find it very interesting. They will welcome you and you will ger a real appreciation of what they do.

 

Go for it but be smart.

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Don't go alone. You will be a little nervous your first time and a second set of eyes will help a lot. Try to arrive early in the morning when it is a little slower. If you can find a ride to Fisk where they are on the ground you will find it very interesting. They will welcome you and you will ger a real appreciation of what they do.

 

Go for it but be smart.

 

Thanks...I'm trying to be smart.  The problem with something like this is you don't know what you don't know, which is why I'm gathering as much info and opinions as possible.

 

I'm going with two other airplanes, and there will be a second person in my airplane.  I'm thinking the first time I'll want somebody to juggle radio freqs, shuffle papers, and read out the relevent parts of the NOTAM.   

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Andy

I usually maintain the 90 kts until I start my descent, then follow my usual approach speed and landings. To tell you the truth, I just got a CTSW, so my many previous trips to Oshkosh were in a Cessna 172.

The only thing that concerns me is slowing down too fast. The CTSW slows quickly because of low inertia, I can go from 90kts to a 55kt approach speed in probably twenty seconds. I just don't want traffic piling up and cursing while I float down at really low speed for too long.

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Thanks...I'm trying to be smart.  The problem with something like this is you don't know what you don't know, which is why I'm gathering as much info and opinions as possible.

 

I'm going with two other airplanes, and there will be a second person in my airplane.  I'm thinking the first time I'll want somebody to juggle radio freqs, shuffle papers, and read out the relevent parts of the NOTAM.   

 

You are over thinking it....it's not harder than landing at a clsss Bravo airport.  Go land at one of those for practice if you want to get used to barking ATC and complex approach instructions.

 

Heck, you can always linger a few miles outside their airspace and listen to others as they do it.

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You are over thinking it....it's not harder than landing at a clsss Bravo airport.  Go land at one of those for practice if you want to get used to barking ATC and complex approach instructions.

 

Heck, you can always linger a few miles outside their airspace and listen to others as they do it.

 

Having done both it is completely different.

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We have a little class D airport about 70 miles north of us that handles 970 air ops per day, on average, but they don't operate like Oshkosh. (Which I am assuming Burgers knows little about.) They don't route you without you talking to them and they don't expect you to land three at a time on colored spots on the same runway.

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Do I need to remind anyone that Burgers is a relatively low time pilot who has only flown his CTLSi in two states.

 

In my short 67 years, I have never before come across someone who knows so little and claims to know so much.

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Add throttle.

While a funny comment, this is unhelpful. The question is not "how do I make the airplane go faster", but instead is "at what point in the Oshkosh arrival procedure does an airplane need to transition from the 90kt procedure speed to a normal approach speed?"

 

If you do it too early, the airplanes behind you will have problems. Too late, and you can't slow down enough to make the landing. Since descent points are specified, but the time where the 90kt speed is no longer valid is not, it seems a relevant question.

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You are over thinking it....it's not harder than landing at a clsss Bravo airport.  Go land at one of those for practice if you want to get used to barking ATC and complex approach instructions.

 

Heck, you can always linger a few miles outside their airspace and listen to others as they do it.

How many Class B landings have you made in a CT? I'm pretty sure if I tried to land one at Hartsfield (nearest class B), I'd be refused landing and told to go to another airport.

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I have landed at McCarran a half dozen times.  I transition McCarran Bravo airspace and fly the VFR corridors routinely also which requires communicating with McCarran ATC.

 

As I mentioned, fly by the airpsace first and listen to ATC and get a feel for who is in the air and how they are getting down and what the requests/responses sound like before diving in. 

 

Also, a great tool for getting used to busy airspace is  ATC Live  http://www.liveatc.net/

 

KAPA is the best choice since they are major busy, handle every kind of VFR and instrument traffic.  And handle commercial, and local flyers.  Heck, you can even listen to Hartsfield on ATC live,  Tower, Ground, Departure and Clearance are all frequency on the site.

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While a funny comment, this is unhelpful. The question is not "how do I make the airplane go faster", but instead is "at what point in the Oshkosh arrival procedure does an airplane need to transition from the 90kt procedure speed to a normal approach speed?"

 

If you do it too early, the airplanes behind you will have problems. Too late, and you can't slow down enough to make the landing. Since descent points are specified, but the time where the 90kt speed is no longer valid is not, it seems a relevant question.

You seemed to be concerned that your airplane would slow down too quickly.  To prevent this, you add throttle.  Maybe you won't be able to fly "a normal approach speed."  Maybe you will need to fly a faster approach with less flaps and only slow down to "normal" speed for the last few feet.  My comment to add throttle was not meant to be funny, but to help you.

 

How do you make approaches at KPDK?  Surely, you adjust your speeds and approach path compared to landing at Winder.

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I think there have been some who have flown into the ultralight strip and parked there with their CT. This might be a something to consider, but you need to be comfortable with low slow close in approaches.

Since you won't be able to park with your friends anyway you could land at Fond du Lac and take the bus up to Oshkosh.

I have flown into Oshkosh before in several different airplanes, mostly on the day before it starts or the first day. When flying in early like this the airport is often closed to all but show aircraft. When this happens it is a little more relaxed than when it is open to all aircraft. I will try and describe what it is like later.

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You seemed to be concerned that your airplane would slow down too quickly.  To prevent this, you add throttle.  Maybe you won't be able to fly "a normal approach speed."  Maybe you will need to fly a faster approach with less flaps and only slow down to "normal" speed for the last few feet.  My comment to add throttle was not meant to be funny, but to help you.  You obviously don't need help.  I have you on ignore, but made the mistake of clicking on your post and responding.

 

How do you make approaches at KPDK?  Surly, you adjust your speeds and approach path compared to landing at winder.

 

Your comment sounded a little flippant, is all...now we're on the same page.

 

I try to fly my approaches consistently, no matter what airport I'm flying into.  Of course if a controller asks me to "maintain best forward speed" or "expedite" that is different.  Otherwise I try to fly them more or less the same.  A runway is a runway, provided there's not an obstacle at the threshold or something.  I try to fly them slow and touch down on the numbers, so a 1500ft runway lands the same as a 10,000ft runway.

 

In the case of Oshkosh though, you are supposed to maintain a constant 90kt speed and 1/2 mile from the next airplane in line, as that is the primary means of separation.  I just don't know at what point you pull out the speed and drop down to normal approach speed.  I could pull to idle just before turning base and probably get it slowed down okay for the landing, but if everybody else is slowing on downwind, I'll run them over.  Likewise if I pull the speed out midfield, and everybody else is waiting until base, I will crowd the airplanes behind me.

 

Everybody needs to be slowing down in a similar way, and the CT will be even more of a challenge because it slows very quickly and approaches so slowly.  I was just hoping that somebody with experience at the event could weigh in on this. 

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I think there have been some who have flown into the ultralight strip and parked there with their CT. This might be a something to consider, but you need to be comfortable with low slow close in approaches.

 

Since you won't be able to park with your friends anyway you could land at Fon Du Lac and take the bus up to Oshkosh.

 

I have flown into Oshkosh before in several different airplanes, mostly on the day before it starts or the first day. When flying in early like this the airport is often closed to all but show aircraft. When this happens it is a little more relaxed than when it is open to all aircraft. I will try and describe what it is like later.

 

I thought about the ultralight field, but I think I want to use the main runway since my buddies are going in there.  Plus the 1200ft ultralight strip is a bit on the short side (for me, at least).

 

We are going to arrive Sunday, which I think is technically before the show starts but open to general arrivals.  I'm hoping that the traffic at that time will be a little lighter, but I could see if being heavy then too, depending how many people try to "beat the rush."

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Hi Andy,

 

You'll have a nice long runway even though they may have you land long. I have crossed the numbers at 100 mph and all you do is hold it off and let the speed bleed and you'll still touch down at your same speed. Other than a little glide close to the runway it won't really be any different than your normal landing. Go out to your own runway. Get in zero flaps at 90 and come in to land. Cross the numbers at 90 then just cut power and let her settle.

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Only time I've been to Oshkosh was a landing on 27.  I considered landing in the Ultralight field and this might be the best bet.  Personally, I would prefer to slow way down and not be hurried.  Our CT's are made for these types of fields.

 

Andy, here's how it will look if you land at Oshkosh.  My friend Phil is flying - nice job!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcY1KZ2dNh4

 

This is a 10 minute video but it really gives the sights and sounds of the landing environment at Oshkosh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96y4nVRyUMY

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Andy, to answer your question, you want to carry the speed as long as you can and still land on the spot they assign. How you go about it will depend on which runway you are landing. If you land on 9 it will be a straight in approach. On 27 you will fly a large pattern with a fairly long base and final for a CT. 36 will be a base with a long final and you need to pay attention to whether they assign left or right, right is a taxiway that they use as a runway for arrivals. 18 will give you a downwind and a short base and a low turn to final. There will be a dead line that you are not supposed to cross because of landing traffic on 9-27. For all but 18 I think you should be able to carry your 90 knots all the way to final.

 

I have flown into Oshkosh several times since the late 1980's. I was lucky in that I was always flying a show or display plane, so most of the time I always got right in. I did have to divert to Fond du Lac on one occasion. My first few trips I went in NORDO, because it was the easiest way with little or no traffic. While they still will do NORDO it is not the same anymore. I have also been lucky in the fact that I have not had to hold, I always just get in line at Ripon and follow the  railroad track to Fisk. Be aware that people will not fly over the tracks like they are supposed to, and Also watch for people who will squeeze into line between Ripon and Fisk instead of getting in line at Ripon like they are supposed to. At Fisk the controllers will call you out by color and type (high wing, low wing, canard, ect.). You reply by rocking your wings. You will see pilots rocking their wings before Fisk thinking that the controllers are talking to them, but unless you are within a 1/2 mile or so of Fisk they are not talking to you. Fisk is where they will assign a runway, either 9-27 or 18-36. If traffic is not to busy you can make a request for which runway you want, listen to see if others are asking. The request would be (white high wing would like 36) keep it short and sweet. My last time flying in was in a Thorp T18. They ask if we were a flight, and the leader responded yes and requested 27.

The big things are follow the procedure. Try and hold your altitude and speed per the NOTAM. Watch for those who will bust into line between Ripon and Fisk. Make sure you don't run over anybody, and hope the pilot behind you is doing the same thing. Follow the airplane in front of you. Try and follow the controllers instructions. Carry your speed as long as you can, and the slow to land on the assigned spot. There will be 3 spots on the runway with aircraft landing on each at the same time. You won't pull power and slow to descend, you will lower the nose and descend, and reduce power to maintain 90 knots, then plan to pull power to slow from 90knots to arrive at landing speed on your assigned mark on the runway.

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I did land on the grass strip at Sun 'n' Fun one year.

 

Was astounded at how easy it was. Come in from a totally different direction, stay under 500', and just land.

 

Really way too easy!

 

Would always be my first option if it were approved - it was in Lakeland.

 

Anyway, grab a bag of flour and fly over to Copperhill if you want to practice landing on a dot from various approach speeds!

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