Doug G. Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 Burgers, you keep saying the Dynon/796 setup is 2020 compliant. I can't find anyone at Dynon or FD USA that agrees with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 I just talked to Dynon a couple of weeks ago about this issue. They told me the same thing. The same thing that it IS or that it ISN'T? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Top Cat Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 I just talked to Dynon a couple of weeks ago about this issue. They told me the same thing. I had a similar conversation with Dynon. My airplane has ADS-B IN and OUT and we both agreed that as of TODAY my airplane is '2020 compliant' ….until it isn't! I get that…some people don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbigs Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 You cannot use a portable unit like the 796 as a source for ADS-B out. The recent change in wording will allow the dynon transponder to be used as the transmitter though, as long as dynon stands behind it saying it meets the TSO specs. On 100LL and oil changes: not a major deal if it's a low time engine. It becomes an issue with several hundred hours, but a switch to mogas and regular maintenance will often help to clean it up. Rest is good. Simply not true. The wording of the FAA Correction notice says LSA and Experimentals are allowed to use non TSOd equipment to meet the ADS-B mandate. period. The Garmin 796 is also WAAS. Here is an article explaining the FAA Correction: http://www.suasnews.com/2015/02/34268/faa-revises-ads-b-rule-to-give-experimental-aircraft-more-options/ Here is the FAA Correction: https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2015/02/09/2015-02579/automatic-dependent-surveillance-broadcast-ads-b-out-performance-requirements-to-support-air-traffic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 Simply not true. The wording of the FAA Correction notice says LSA and Experimentals are allowed to use non TSOd equipment to meet the ADS-B mandate. period. The Garmin 796 is also WAAS. No, NOT "period". Such non-TSO gear must "meet the performance requirements" of the TSO. WHICH performance requirements is not specifically defined, so we must assume that means ALL of them, not simple GPS positional accuracy. Please link to the Garmin document that states a 796 meets all performance requirements of the TSO for an ADS-B Out position source. Such a document DOES NOT EXIST. Wishing does not make it so. But you've been told this in a dozen threads, I doubt you'll listen to this one either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S3flyer Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 Please link to the Garmin document that states a 796 meets all performance requirements of the TSO for an ADS-B Out position source. Such a document DOES NOT EXIST. I've got the opposite -- a statement from Garmin that says the 79x does NOT meet the 2020 requirement AND there are no plans to do so. I got the same answer from Trig when I was working on receiving traffic. They have a compliant transponder (but need a compliant source). They mentioned the 79x would "work" in waking up the ground stations but did not provide the information needed to meet the 2020 mandate. Keep in mind Trig makes the Dynon transponders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug G. Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 Simply not true. The wording of the FAA Correction notice says LSA and Experimentals are allowed to use non TSOd equipment to meet the ADS-B mandate. period. The Garmin 796 is also WAAS. Here is an article explaining the FAA Correction: http://www.suasnews.com/2015/02/34268/faa-revises-ads-b-rule-to-give-experimental-aircraft-more-options/ Here is the FAA Correction: https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2015/02/09/2015-02579/automatic-dependent-surveillance-broadcast-ads-b-out-performance-requirements-to-support-air-traffic So, Dynon and FD say it is not 2020 compliant, but you want us to rely on your "expertise" in avionics and rules interpretation? No thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrutrakTech Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 Are you actually the Devil, with temptations like that?!? You have my attention. Is the install just a simple swap of the head unit, and mounting the emergency level button somewhere? I have the 2.25" round unit, BTW. No, I"m just a really friendly person! The install is simple. It fits the same hold in the panel and uses the same wiring. There are a few pin changes but I supply an adapter (two 25-pin connectors with about 8" of wire between them) that makes it a complete plug and play install. The only additional part you'll have to do is add the AP level switch, if you want to be able to use it. As for what you'll gain, the altitude select feature is almost invaluable. With the round controller the upgrade is $900 and will get a fresh three year warranty on the controller. Let me know if I can help! EDIT: I made a typo in my first post in this thread. Sorry! The Vizion DOES interface with the Skyview. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Top Cat Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 I apologize for not being more clear. That SkyView GPS did not meet the ADS-B specs for the 2020 mandate. They indicated they were working on it and are confident they will offer a competitive solution in the near future. Before I come "out of the gate" on ADS-B install for my airplane, I am waiting to see what they come up with. I like the integration of systems with the SkyView product line. Pricing and customer support are very important to me. I think Dynon shines on both of those criteria. This is what Dynon told me also. They said that they may produce their own module to provide the transponder with an approved WAAS GPS source, or they might configure another vendor's product to use with Skyview. Part of the issue is seeing what the FAA might do : stand firm, offer flexibility, add/change rule etc…whilst this development continues. Making it cost effective for cost conscious sport pilots is important too. I'm impressed with Dynon and I fully expect them to solve the problem before too long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 Simply not true. The wording of the FAA Correction notice says LSA and Experimentals are allowed to use non TSOd equipment to meet the ADS-B mandate. period. The Garmin 796 is also WAAS. Here is an article explaining the FAA Correction: http://www.suasnews.com/2015/02/34268/faa-revises-ads-b-rule-to-give-experimental-aircraft-more-options/ Here is the FAA Correction: https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2015/02/09/2015-02579/automatic-dependent-surveillance-broadcast-ads-b-out-performance-requirements-to-support-air-traffic The FAA's position is that portables, such as the 796, cannot be used as a position source, no matter if they meet the TSO spec. It must be a permanent install (and no, attaching screws doesn't make it permanent). In addition, Garmin refuses to support the full output string required for 2020 ADS-B out operation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbigs Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 The FAA's position is that portables, such as the 796, cannot be used as a position source, no matter if they meet the TSO spec. It must be a permanent install (and no, attaching screws doesn't make it permanent). In addition, Garmin refuses to support the full output string required for 2020 ADS-B out operation. That is not true. The 796 is panel mounted, it is not portable. It is wired into the system and connected to the Dynon Skyviews direcly. The setup meets the mandate. Dynon has their own GPS modules, but they are not needed...The Garmin does the job.... What is fun is how some on this board assume they are going to meet the mandate with handheld ADS-B solutions... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 That is not true. The 796 is panel mounted, it is not portable. It is wired into the system and connected to the Dynon Skyviews direcly. The setup meets the mandate. Dynon has their own GPS modules, but they are not needed...The Garmin does the job.... What is fun is how some on this board assume they are going to meet the mandate with handheld ADS-B solutions... You know it is kind of funny, because Garmin calls the 796 a portable GPS. I guess they you need to call them and set them straight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug G. Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 So, my 696 was panel mounted until I got an LOA to change it. I wonder what it is now, it still has the same wires. Just ask an expert. Funny, funny, funny!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 796s and prolly all x96s are called 'dedicated portables' a term used for gaming devices. I guess 1st it is a standalone portable device and 2nd its dedicated to an interface and pre-loaded aviation related apps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 That is not true. The 796 is panel mounted, it is not portable. It is wired into the system and connected to the Dynon Skyviews direcly. The setup meets the mandate. Dynon has their own GPS modules, but they are not needed...The Garmin does the job.... What is fun is how some on this board assume they are going to meet the mandate with handheld ADS-B solutions... Again, just because you drive some screws, it doesn't change what the unit's design is. Neither you nor I get to choose what to call it. If that was the case, I could screw a handheld radio to my panel and call it a VOR receiver. We tried that, by the way. The FAA said "You're funny". Garmin's brochure on the 796: http://www8.garmin.com/aviation/brochures/aera_796_795.pdf. The right side says: "See what it’s like to navigate in 3D on a portable touchscreen GPS." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S3flyer Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 Again, just because you drive some screws, it doesn't change what the unit's design is. Neither you nor I get to choose what to call it. If that was the case, I could screw a handheld radio to my panel and call it a VOR receiver. Yup. The Skyguard devices are defined as portable so they could release the product sooner. They have a nice bracket to permanently install but cannot do so until they get FAA approval (in process). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbigs Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 Yup. The Skyguard devices are defined as portable so they could release the product sooner. They have a nice bracket to permanently install but cannot do so until they get FAA approval (in process). The Garmin 796 is permanently mounted in the panel, it is not hanging on a yoke, or attached to a suction mount. It lives in a cutout in the panel, and is wired directly to the Dynon Skyviews and powered by the plane. I can unscrew the Dynons and detach in the same way as the Garmin as configured in the CTLSi...That does not make the Dynons any more or less 'portable' than how the Garmin is installed in the panel. I have been using ADS-B in/out for a year and a half. Most SW owners on the board have yet to experience the technology. Why wait for 2020, put it in now, it's a fantastic tool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 The Garmin 796 is permanently mounted in the panel, it is not hanging on a yoke, or attached to a suction mount. It lives in a cutout in the panel, and is wired directly to the Dynon Skyviews and powered by the plane. I can unscrew the Dynons and detach in the same way as the Garmin as configured in the CTLSi...That does not make the Dynons any more or less 'portable' than how the Garmin is installed in the panel. I have been using ADS-B in/out for a year and a half. Most SW owners on the board have yet to experience the technology. Why wait for 2020, put it in now, it's a fantastic tool. That's fine, but you can't claim it to be 2020 compliant. It doesn't matter if you welded it to the engine, it's still classified as a portable. What you choose to do with it is no concern of mine, but I urge you not to make false claims, there's already a lot of misinformation and I don't want to see someone getting in trouble when they are trying to do it right. Also, yes it works to a basic degree for ADS-B, but it's not fully compliant. It doesn't send the complete data string as laid out in the ADS-B requirements, and the FAA could very well could start blocking incomplete data streams and send a letter to your house about it as it can be considered "unreliable". The FAA tiers ADS-B signal reliability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug G. Posted June 19, 2015 Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 I hope, Burgers, that you don't sell your CTLSi and give the false impression to the buyer that it is 2020 ADS-B compliant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralarcon Posted June 19, 2015 Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 That's fine, but you can't claim it to be 2020 compliant. It doesn't matter if you welded it to the engine, it's still classified as a portable. What you choose to do with it is no concern of mine, but I urge you not to make false claims, there's already a lot of misinformation and I don't want to see someone getting in trouble when they are trying to do it right. Also, yes it works to a basic degree for ADS-B, but it's not fully compliant. It doesn't send the complete data string as laid out in the ADS-B requirements, and the FAA could very well could start blocking incomplete data streams and send a letter to your house about it as it can be considered "unreliable". The FAA tiers ADS-B signal reliability. Is there an FD solution to make a CT, CTLS, CTSW , 2020 compliant ? Given the current rules. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug G. Posted June 19, 2015 Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 Nope, not yet. Unless something has come up very recently. I think they are waiting for Dynon to come up with something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralarcon Posted June 19, 2015 Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 Yes. FD offers the Dynon ADS-B solution with the Garmin 796...the FAA says experimentals and LSA can use non TSOd gear to meet 2020. If you don't like the Garmin only solution, you can add a Dynon GPS module and get it that way. I would rather go with the 796/Dynon solution , if that is legal. Thanks Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralarcon Posted June 19, 2015 Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 Nope, not yet. Unless something has come up very recently. I think they are waiting for Dynon to come up with something. I guess, difference of opinion. Thanks Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted June 19, 2015 Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 I guess, difference of opinion. Thanks Cheers Doug's opinion is supported by both Dynon and Flight Design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralarcon Posted June 19, 2015 Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 The above is false information. The above statement is correct (re. 2020 solution), just spoke with Flight Design support in Connecticut and I quote, "Not at this time sir"." We are hoping somebody comes up with an inexpensive solution and we would be ready to integrate that " Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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