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F16 and cessna 150 crash


procharger

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LSA Flyer, that is a good article, but it does lose a little credibility because of the number of places it says you are required to have a clearance into class C airspace. Class C airspace requires established two way radio communication, and not a clearance. The same for class D, but I suspect he figured that if you are on flight following that you will be higher that 2500 AGL.

 

Tom,

 

A clearance is required, 2-way radio communications when approaching establishes that clearance unless instructed otherwise.

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Tom,

 

A clearance is required, 2-way radio communications when approaching establishes that clearance unless instructed otherwise.

Maybe just semantics, but in the below document, Class A requires an IFR clearance, Class B uses the word "clearance", and significantly Class C does not.

 

http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/pilot_handbook/media/PHAK%20-%20Chapter%2014.pdf

 

Anyway, I learned and we always taught that no clearance is required for Class C or D, just communication requirements.

 

Pretty sure that still stands.

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Class D requires "two way contact." If they acknowledge your call that is sufficient. You don't need to be formally cleared. The same is true of class C.

For class B clearance is needed to enter. If you don't hear the words "cleared to enter" you don't have clearance.

91.129.C.1, 91. 30. C.1, 91.131.B.1.

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My home airport is class D. I don't need VFR clearance just two way communications. Now, I have once been told to stay out of the class D area. I should have called the tower after I landed to find out why. They can sequence you, but to flatly say "don't enter" doesn't seem right, but I complied. We have a lot of student controllers from UND.

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I think semantics might be part of the issue, but there is no VFR clearance except class b.

To add pedantics to semantics, you do get clearances to taxi, take off and land at a Class C and D airports.

 

91.129 Operations in Class D airspace.

(i) Takeoff, landing, taxi clearance. No person may, at any airport with an operating control tower, operate an aircraft on a runway or taxiway, or take off or land an aircraft, unless an appropriate clearance is received from ATC.

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Not only that but you won't be cleared in class C or D unless it's an IFR clearance.

 

What?  The only thing you need to enter C or D airspace is two-way radio contact, no clearance.  Radio contact is not established unless you hear your tail number in the acknowledgement from ATC.  IFR flights are also required to make radio contact before entering C or D.

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To add pedantics to semantics, you do get clearances to taxi, take off and land at a Class C and D airports.

 

91.129 Operations in Class D airspace.

(i) Takeoff, landing, taxi clearance. No person may, at any airport with an operating control tower, operate an aircraft on a runway or taxiway, or take off or land an aircraft, unless an appropriate clearance is received from ATC.

 

Wouldn't that be a clearance to use the surface instead of the airspace?

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I entered the Santa Barbara Class C once ( I think it was ARSA back then ) from the east descending a mountain canyon like I was flying in the Sierra.  I  turned down the volume on my Comm radio in route and forgot it was down.  I wasn't hearing the replies until I figured out my volume needed increased and then Santa Barbara Approach Immediately told me that I was cleared into their airspace repeatedly and no worry about busting it.  Normally them reading back my Nnumber was implicit clearance but they were using the magic words just like in Class B by the time I responded.

 

I think today the language is less ambiguous and the implied clearance has become required 2-way comm.  Either that or I am now senile.

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That's what I said. Do you not read other posts or not understand? By the way, IFR pilots are in constant contact with ATC and are already cleared to some point. Most of my IFR flights I am cleared to destination airport before takeoff.  That would include clearance into or through any airspace that is included in your clearance.  It's usually cleared to Podunk airport as filed or sometimes with a slight change in routing vs what I filed.  So, if I filed to fly through some class b or c airspace and got cleared as filed, I don't need any additional clearance.

     This is correct.

In addition,  an IFR clearance is really in case you lose comm. The clearance establishes mutually agreed limits and intentions. The pilot reads it back so that both sides are on the same page. That's why the clearance is cleared to a destination, and for example,  as filed so that in the event of lost comm in IFR they airspace is cleared and they have an idea of the expected arrival time. Altitudes cleared to and filed for are also included for the same reason. If there is a SID then it will be included as well as any transition. A STAR would be included if that's how you filed and if that's how they cleared you.

  Because of this, once cleared to destination as filed, or by an amendment to the filed clearance, you're cleared into airspace that is part of that clearance. Enroute if you're given a hold they specifically tell you where to hold, which way and for how long. At the time the hold expires and if you've now lost comm they'd expect you to proceed on the previous clearance at the time of the holding EFC. Lost comm they'd expect you to fly to destination and land.

 

 Since Class D is from the surface up then on the ground you're technically in their airspace. The clearance is really the same thing as what you're approved to do, and you acknowledge and thereby agree to comply. All clearances will implicitly include the clearance limit, including a landing clearance. As such a clearance to land isn't a clearance to taxi after landing. A taxi clearance will also include a limit as in how far or where you're cleared to…to hold short of a taxiway or cleared to a spot, gate, or ramp entrance.

   The tower is clearing airspace for you to take off, land or go around hence a clearance to do that acknowledged by the pilot.

 

ATC will separate IFR traffic from other IFR traffic. In VFR all IFR traffic is also responsible for see and avoid until resuming IMC and ATC will still provided separation. ATC will advise IFR traffic of known VFR traffic, and even advise of unknown VFR traffic if it appears on their screen.

 

 You can get VFR clearances of a sort…even flight following will advise radar service terminated or flight following terminated frequency change approved etc implying the limit or end of their service. Not really a hard clearance but done this way so that both parties are in agreement as to the change in status.

  Special VFR is a pseudo IFR clearance  usually tower to tower but again the terms of the clearance are spelled out with routing, altitude etc and the pilot agrees by acknowledging with a read back.

 

 There is a zen to flying in the IFR environment. It's about much more than staring at the instruments. You have to do this as well as multi-task navigation, weather, ATC, monitor alternates and other options, weather, changing conditions, fuel requirements and changes as routing changes…all whilst flying the airplane at the exact altitude and airspeed that you acknowledged in your clearance.

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Traffic advisories are part of traffic separation.

 

For those unfamiliar with this dynamic, you are REQUIRED to acknowledge all traffic advisories with 'traffic in sight' or 'looking for traffic' And if traffic not initially located, once you do see the traffic you MUST tell ATC you have them in sight.

 

You are REQUIRED to climb/descend/hold altitude, make turns, and/or reduce speed when instructed by ATC in regard to traffic separation.

 

As I stated, ATC separates traffic whether in controlled airspace, on the ground, takeoff/landing clearances, approaching/leaving controlled airspace, on flight following, for all types of traffic - VFR, IFR, plan filed, or not.

As a non-instrument rated pilot, you obviously have not heard "no separation services provided" when on a practice approach.

 

Your repeated espousal of a totally incorrect interpretation of the separation services ATC actually provides is dangerous in two ways:

- you may cause a mid-air yourself

- you may be the causal effect of a mid-air by someone who thinks your view is correct

 

PLEASE be cautious of who you share your misinformed perspective with.

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As a non-instrument rated pilot, you obviously have not heard "no separation services provided" when on a practice approach.

 

Your repeated espousal of a totally incorrect interpretation of the separation services ATC actually provides is dangerous in two ways:

- you may cause a mid-air yourself

- you may be the causal effect of a mid-air by someone who thinks your view is correct

 

PLEASE be cautious of who you share your misinformed perspective with.

 

Traffic separation is ATC ENTIRE job - in air or on the ground. There is no distinction between VFR and IFR in regard to airport operations and safety - in fact, all aircraft are treated the same (except for speed) in regard to separation, commercial or GA.

 

Today I flew out of a Class Charlie international airport.  I heard departure/approach control inform another flyer (Lear) that he was not allowed to overtake another aircraft (Mooney) on his way to the airport unless he had the other aircraft IN SIGHT.  The controller said there is a 3 mi separation rule that applies.

 

Attacking me personally does not change the rules of flight.

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Today I flew out of a Class Charlie international airport.  I heard departure control inform another flyer (Lear) that he was not allowed to overtake another aircraft (Mooney) on his way to the airport unless he had the other aircraft IN SIGHT.  The controller said there is a 3 mi separation rule that applies.

 

 

If the controller had been providing separation he would have assigned headings, altitudes, and speeds to the aircraft involved. In addition there would have been no requirement for the Lear to have the Mooney in sight. The fact that the controller advised the Lear that he needed to have the Mooney in sight put the responsibility on the Lear pilot to provide separation from the Mooney.

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Bottom line of this entire thread, unless you are on an IFR clearance flying in pretty hard IMC, you need to see and avoid other traffic. Even in class B, there could be stray VFR traffic who have busted the airspace with no clearance. In light IMC or marginal IMC, there could be VFR traffic pushing the limits of their pilot privileges.

Or even VFR cleared into the airspace (some class B allow this) or transiting on a VFR route through the B airspace. Right?
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Yes, I included that.  You just never know who might be in there without a clearance.  I am unclear about VFR transition corridors through class B airspace.  I don't know if ATC is even watching these airplanes or if it's more like a hole drilled through class B where VFR traffic is pretty much own their own.  I have never flown in a VFR corridor through class b.  I have always been IFR or VFR with a clearance flying an assigned altitude and heading or to an assigned fix.

I have flown the Phoenix Bravo VFR transition for years. It's a non event, (as long as you don't hear the dreaded "remain clear of the class bravo, expect to hold for 20 minutes" - which doesn't happen too often); you get a squawk code, assigned altitude and just fly the prescribed routing. On every flight, I was most definitely not on my own. Regular traffic calls and a very occasional vector away from traffic is the norm.

 

In the case of Phoenix, the view of Sky Harbor from 2500AGL on a busy Monday morning is awesome. Watching airliners arrive and depart below you is something not to be missed.

 

BTW, coming out of the bravo, you get "radar services terminated, squawk VFR, resume own navigation." From there, I'm on my own with no expectation of separation services.

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Traffic separation is ATC ENTIRE job - in air or on the ground. There is no distinction between VFR and IFR in regard to airport operations and safety - in fact, all aircraft are treated the same (except for speed) in regard to separation, commercial or GA.

 

Today I flew out of a Class Charlie international airport.  I heard departure control inform another flyer (Lear) that he was not allowed to overtake another aircraft (Mooney) on his way to the airport unless he had the other aircraft IN SIGHT.  The controller said there is a 3 mi separation rule that applies.

 

Attacking me personally does not change the rules of flight.

Having been a member of this forum for about a year, I've avoided responding to your outlandish posts. This is America and you are certainly entitled to make a fool of yourself.

 

I cannot remain silent with clear conscience, however, when your opinions create potentially dangerous situations. You may not like to be told that you are wrong; hey, that just makes you human! But in this case, I implore you to check your ego at the door and get some good ground instruction on the matter at hand.

 

We will all be safer if you do.

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