Anyone installed a 2020 ADS-B system?

[Doug G.]

I am looking at both Garmin and Dynon systems. Garmin would be a bit cheaper, but Dynon is easier to install.

Has anyone put either of these systems into their planes (in and out)? Why did you choose one over the other? And, how did the FD approval go?

[gbigs]

I am looking at both Garmin and Dynon systems. Garmin would be a bit cheaper, but Dynon is easier to install.

Has anyone put either of these systems into their planes (in and out)? Why did you choose one over the other? And, how did the FD approval go?

 

I bought ADS-B in/out Dynon from the factory new.  I have been flying with it for nearly 2 years now.  And have long been an advocate of putting it in ASAP.  The main reason for the Dynon solution is the Dynon glass PFD/MFD, autopilot in place at delivery.   The plane is for sale, but if I were to keep it, I would add the Dynon GSP/WAAS to the panel just to complete that requirement but continue using the Garmin 796 for touch GPS navigation.

[Runtoeat]

Hi Doug.  My friend just had the Garmin GDL84 installed which he has linked to his iPad.  This is on a 2008 CTLS with Dynon glass and Garmin 496.  He requested and received MRA approval from FD USA to install this.  He had been using Garmin Pilot flight program for over a year on his iPad and was happy with this.  He felt Garmin is a reputable company based on the solid performance of the 496 and also because of his good experience with Garmin equipment and flight programs which were used in the Phenom jets he flew until his recent retirement.

[FlyingMonkey]

Hi Doug.  My friend just had the Garmin GDL84 installed which he has linked to his iPad.  This is on a 2008 CTLS with Dynon glass and Garmin 496.  He requested and received MRA approval from FD USA to install this.  He had been using Garmin Pilot flight program for over a year on his iPad and was happy with this.  He felt the Garmin was a reputable company based on his good experience with Garmin equipment and flight programs (with ADS- in the Phenom jets he flew until his recent retirement.

I think this is going to be my plan. My avionics shop estimated $5000-5500 installed.

[Top Cat]

As far as I know from speaking with a manager at Dynon the other day, the Dynon SV-2020-GPS (that's been advertised as being released this Fall for  $590 ) has yet to come to market. Its this GPS that will make the Dynon ADSB IN/OUT fully 2020 compliant.

 

Dynon firmware SV 13.1 is due out this January and maybe the 2020 compliant GPS will be issued then but from what he said, there are still some bureaucratic hurdles to overcome yet so it looks to be delayed for a while.

 

I have the Dynon ADSB IN/OUT in my airplane but it's not fully 2020 compliant as yet. We still have the SV-250-GPS units installed until the new one comes out.

 

http://www.dynonavionics.com/docs/SkyView_GPS-2020_Module.html

[Runtoeat]

Doug and Andy, some observations I might make regarding  the Garmin GDL84 install (FWIW):

 

Initially, there was a lot of time needed to figure out why things weren't working.  Finally after calls to Garmin - with extremely long waits on the phone - it was determined that downloading updates and program updating were required to get the GDL84 to "talk" to the Garmin Flight Stream used to communicate with iPAD and inst panel devices (if one has these).  No advanced notice given about this by Garmin.  Finally when the right questions were asked then Garmin gave reason why. Not sure why Garmin doesn't ship GDL84 and Flight Stream equipment from factory ready to talk to each other and not sure why Garmin doesn't give  notice that this is needed?  Also, Garmin will only talk to a licensed repair center and will only allow this center to obtain installation manuals and download update for software.  This is understandable - Garmin is trying maintain integrity of it's products but it also meant that my friend couldn't do any "fact finding" thru phone conversations with Garmin to relay to his installer to help support the installation.  Avionics repair and installation centers normally have more than a few projects going and don't have time to spend waiting many minutes in a cue to talk to tech support.  Lots of time spent in this phase and lots of frustration.  An estimated one week turned into a month before install completed.  A suggestion is to try to find a repair center that has already installed this equipment, if at all possible.

[gbigs]

Hi Doug.  My friend just had the Garmin GDL84 installed which he has linked to his iPad.  This is on a 2008 CTLS with Dynon glass and Garmin 496.  He requested and received MRA approval from FD USA to install this.  He had been using Garmin Pilot flight program for over a year on his iPad and was happy with this.  He felt Garmin is a reputable company based on the solid performance of the 496 and also because of his good experience with Garmin equipment and flight programs which were used in the Phenom jets he flew until his recent retirement.

 

You cannot use a portable GPS or portable ADS-B to satisfy the ADS-B 2020 mandate.

[FredG]

Doug, I have not yet, but I will.  My 2006 CTsw has Dynon D100 and Dynon D120 panels, Garmin GTX327 transponder, Garmin SL40 radio, TT AP, and Garmin 396 in a panel dock (pretty standard stuff).

 

I keep waiting for a "one box" solution to hit the market.  Aren't we all.  My plane is E-LSA, so I am hoping for something I can install myself.  

 

Fred

[FlyingMonkey]

You cannot use a portable GPS or portable ADS-B to satisfy the ADS-B 2020 mandate.

The GDL84 is the ADS-B box, it's fully compliant and includes a certified position source. The iPad is only used to display the IN weather and traffic data. Perfectly legal.

[FlyingMonkey]

Doug and Andy, some observations I might make regarding  the Garmin GDL84 install (FWIW):

 

Initially, there was a lot of time needed to figure out why things weren't working.  Finally after calls to Garmin - with extremely long waits on the phone - it was determined that downloading updates and program updating were required to get the GDL84 to "talk" to the Garmin Flight Stream used to communicate with iPAD and inst panel devices (if one has these).  No advanced notice given about this by Garmin.  Finally when the right questions were asked then Garmin gave reason why. Not sure why Garmin doesn't ship GDL84 and Flight Stream equipment from factory ready to talk to each other and not sure why Garmin doesn't give  notice that this is needed?  Also, Garmin will only talk to a licensed repair center and will only allow this center to obtain installation manuals and download update for software.  This is understandable - Garmin is trying maintain integrity of it's products but it also meant that my friend couldn't do any "fact finding" thru phone conversations with Garmin to relay to his installer to help support the installation.  Avionics repair and installation centers normally have more than a few projects going and don't have time to spend waiting many minutes in a cue to talk to tech support.  Lots of time spent in this phase and lots of frustration.  An estimated one week turned into a month before install completed.  A suggestion is to try to find a repair center that has already installed this equipment, if at all possible.

Thanks Dick, that is great info to have!

[Doug G.]

The Dynon solution requires three devices. You either need to use their transponder box (which puts ask the transponder controls on the Skyview screen) or the GTX 330 ES conversion. You need the GPS source/antenna (a direct replacement for muy current one) and the ADS-B in box for the full in/out 2020 solution. I'll find the product #s and post them. I think this comes in less than $3500, and a pretty easy install.

When I talked to a Garmin shop about this they would have me use the GDL-39 for the in side.

I assign leaning toward Dynon even though it I currently use my 696 for planning and navigation. The Dynon is almost plug and play.

[Runtoeat]

Fred, the iFly 740 GPS combined with the SkyGuard TWX "EX" transceiver is now being offered as a "one box" package by Adventure Pilot - Manufacturer of the iFly GPS. The "package" which includes iFly 740 GPS and SkyGuard TWX "EX" is now being offered for about $2,400. Should one not want the GPS and wishes to use a tablet with a flight application for viewing the ADS-B data, the SkyGuard transceiver can be purchased only and there is no need to purchase the iFly GPS.  I currently use the iFly GPS application on my Galaxy tablet and this provides similar viewing for the tablet as what is seen on the iFly 700 series GPS's.  The transceiver can be installed by a mechanic and needs no additional paperwork for the FAA but does require approved MRA from FD USA. The SkyGuard transceiver meets 2020 requirements only when installed in LSA aircraft.  Please see below.  You can call Shane Woodson at Adventure Pilot @ 888.200.5129  X-804 if you would like more information on the iFly 740 and how it functions with the SkyGuard and Don Foutz at SkyGuard @ 512.784.7766 is the person to contact for questions on how his ADS-B SkyGuard TWX "EX" model meets 2020 requirements. Please note, I am not connected with any of the above manufacturers.  the information presented is being provided in hopes others might find the information useful in building a knowlege base for possible purchase of ADS-B equipment.  My own perception, is that this "package" is a well engineered system which doesn't appear highly difficult to install and is being sold at a reasonable price. Testimonials and forum comments from owners which is found on the SkyGuard website indicates satisfactory experience using the equipment.  Very important to me also is the fact that Shane and Don have always been friendly and willing to discuss technical and financial matters each time I have called or sent email.
 

The GDL84 currently meets 2020 standards.  The SkyGuard TWX "EX" currently meets 2020 standards. SkyGuard owner, Don Foutz, has released the "EX" version of his SkyGuard ADS-B tranceiver which meets the FAA standards necessary for his transceiver to meet 2020 requirements but this is ONLY for installation into LSA.  Here is an excerpt from the installation manual and below this is a link to the manual itself.  

 

                                             System Description
This Transceiver is a fully integrated 978mhz UAT ADS-B radio transceiver
along with a WAAS GPS (non-certified version) and WiFi transmitter. The main unit
also contains circuitry to interface with a panel mounted display and a Mode A/C/S
transponder. Additionally, there are 2 RF receiver channels (one at 978mhz and one at
1090mhz) that allow receipt of FIS-B and TIS-B messages from ADS-B ground station
towers as well as ADS-B traffic messages from direct air-to-air aircraft. The non-TSO’d
version of this transceiver (P/N: UAT1000-EX) contains an internal non-certified GPS
position source but will “meet the performance requirements of TSO-C154c” when
installed in an Experimental or LSA aircraft. This new FAA rule change was enacted on
February 9, 2015 by changes to: 14 CFR 91.225 section b.1.ii. When installing in an
LSA, a letter of authorization is required from the LSA manufacturer.
The unit is intended to be permanently installed and connected to aircraft power through
a fused/switched dedicated power connection to the aircraft avionics power bus.
The unit will operate utilizing a DC power source ranging from +10 volts to +30 volts
with a minimum of 3 amps of current.
There are 6 antennas connections (1 - 978mhz for UAT transmitter, 1 - 978mhz for UAT
receiver, 1 - 1090mhz for 1090ES receiver, 1 - for GPS antenna, 1 – for WiFi transmitter,
and 1 - for Interrogator antenna). All antennas (except GPS, WiFi and Interrogator) are
intended to be mounted externally on the belly of the aircraft.

 

SkyGuardTWX ADS-B Experimental-or-LSA-Installation.pdf

[Doug G.]

The one thing I didn't mention about my considerations is that I don't want to use a fourth display (meaning iPad) to my system.

[S3flyer]

Doug -- what is your current equipage?

[Rich]

Doug,

 

I had the GDL-39, 796 and the GTX 330 mode S transponder w/ extended squitter installed when I bought the plane new.

This gave me the ADS-B "IN". At the time we thought that was all that was needed for "IN and "OUT". Our mistake.

Now I needed a WAAS GPS position source to comply with the "OUT" mandate.

 

Garmin came out with the A20 WAAS GPS source about three months ago. I had that installed two months ago and am now 2020 compliant. Both channels are covered with this set up.

 

The cost was $1200 for the A20 including all hardware, cables and antenna. Installation was $400.

So far it's the lowest price if you have the same equipment.

[Doug G.]

Two Dynon Skyview 10" displays, Garmin 696, GTX 330 EX, SL40.

If I went to Dynon's Transponder I could sell the GTX 330, our alternately I could have it upgraded to the ES version and not use the Dynon transponder.

[BMcCand - N248CT]

Hello,

I have a 2006 CTSW. D100 + Analog engine panel.

 

I've just installed a Navworx ADS600-EXP. It took a while to get - ordered Feb 2015, delivered Dec 2015.  I picked this because of price/performance point. Plus, I have a D100 as altitude source, and a GTX327 as a 'control head'.  This keeps the altitude and

transponder code consistent, and no new items needed in the panel.

I also have a Zaon XRX displaying 1090 traffic on a GPS396, so did not wire the Navworx to GPS.

 

The box itself fit behind the right breaker panel; I got an MRA from FDUSA.

I use the internal GPS antenna, and a short transponder antenna where the ELT was on the belly. 406 ELT was installed

last year, and that antenna is on the top.

 

Still trying Wing-X and iFly as traffic/weather display on ipad. Its too bad Navworx doesn't talk to Foreflight (my favorite app)

 

Overall, I think it works well, I've just emailed FAA to test that. Portland Approach could see me well.

[BMcCand - N248CT]

I got the hardware (UAT, GPS antenna, UAT antenna, wiring harness, coax) for $998.  However, this was promotional pricing of a year ago.

The invoice doesn't split it out, but I think the UAT alone was $729. Today it is $1299. 

I did the installation and it took me 3 days, part time. Add  some cost for an MRA from FD.

[paul m]

Had a few goodies added by Arian as part of my most recent annual at FDUSA.  Installed the Dynon GPS -2020 to go with my SV-XPNDR-261 so I am now 2020 “Out” compliant, with “In” capabilities as well from my SV-ADSB-470.     The GPS upgrade requires Skyview v14 which comes with an added benefit of the new Checklist functionality.  I particularly like having the Emergency Checklists so handy.  Lastly I decided to add a Tanis preheater.  I just hated starting my engine here in the winter. I plugged it in Saturday and left it overnight.  When I fired up the engine Sunday, the oil temp read 110.   It usually reads about 40.  It wasn’t a particularly cold weekend but I think I’m really going to enjoy having it.  I’m linking it to a Switchbox Control for remote turn on capability.  I truly love these planes.  It’s amazing what they can do.  And more great service from Tom and Arian.  Here are some pictures.     

[tespn]

Paul,

 

Great looking checklist.  Did your upgrade to V14 go smoothly?  I'm interested in do same.  Thx.

 

Todd

[paul m]

So far so good Todd. Dynon put out a bulletin that there were some screen freezing issues with v14 but they say it has affected serial numbers below 6000. I haven't experienced any issues in the 3 hours of flying since I got it back.

[sandpiper]

I ran across an article the other day that FD USA has come up with an ADS-B out approved package for CTSW and early CTLS models. Apparently announced it at Sun-n-Fun. 

 

Has anyone else heard about this?

[Doug G.]

Yup, waiting for details. They have worked out something with Freeflight. I think it is only ADS-B out.

I think Freeflight already offers the box, antenna, etc. Not sure what would be different for Flight Design.

[gbigs]

I ran across an article the other day that FD USA has come up with an ADS-B out approved package for CTSW and early CTLS models. Apparently announced it at Sun-n-Fun. 

 

Has anyone else heard about this?

 

It's a Dynon solution.  Anyone can upgrade the Dynon/Garmin setup with a new Dynon GPS/WAAS to the skyview to get the last part of the puzzle.

[sandpiper]

It's a Dynon solution.  Anyone can upgrade the Dynon/Garmin setup with a new Dynon GPS/WAAS to the skyview to get the last part of the puzzle.

 

I don't understand all I know about this but I think Doug Grant is correct when he says this solution uses Freeflight, not Garmin or Dynon. If you have a Skyview then I suspect going the Dynon route is the answer. But, for earlier CT's that don't have Skyview, a LOA to upgrade with Freeflight may be the simplest, most economical, route.

 

Again, I don't understand all I know about this so anything is possible.