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And then there is this......


ralarcon

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It's hard to figure with the situation the two customers have expressed on this forum.  Without FAA approval I'm assuming FD can't keep making and selling aircraft.  So that would make the inspection imperative.  

 

We do have customers in the US getting planes, correct?  

 

It's going to be a question to ask at the Light Sport Expo in a few weeks!

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I believe that a lot of future C4 owners are present day CTLSi owners who have purchased their LSA's in order to be automatically placed at the front of the line to get a C4.  Information presented on this forum indicates that there are European, Asian and Australian owners who have purchased CTLSi's by pre-paying full price for their planes who state that they are waiting an awful long time to receive them. Worse yet, comments indicate after waiting for one or two years for delivery and still not seeing their planes, they get no response from FD Germany when they call the factory to find out when (if?) their CTLSi will be delivered.  One might expect there's going to be less and less potential C4 buyers who opt to first buy a CTLSi  in Europe, Asia and Australia. And, perhaps there will be less potential outright C4 buyers due to the lack of communication they read about between FD Germany and it's paid-up customers?  It appears that U.S. buyers are getting their CTLSi's?  Still not clear on this either.  IMO, FD Germany cannot expect to remain a top seller of LSA aircraft and to successfully compete in the highly competitive 4 place GA arena if it is fact that FD Germany refuses to communicate with it's customers who have paid for but not seen any delivery of their planes.  As for me personally, I am not comfortable having to rely on news clips to know if the company I rely on for parts and expert advice in order to safely maintain my aircraft is still in existence. For those who have purchased but not seen delivery of their CT's, I cannot imagine a poorer example of a lack of communication between a seller and buyer, if what we read about here is true.

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Thanks Dick - I respect you for calling for answers.

 

Most of us, whether we admit it or not, subscribe to a kind of relative morality - we'll object when wrongdoing adversely affects us, but we'll tolerate it in silence as long as it doesn't come near us, and particularly so if we have something to lose by speaking out. 

 

In post 248, under Delivery and Delay Problems, DECZR outlines a litany of unethical behaviour.  (In any other context, many on this forum would use the term 'ripped off' to describe it.)   He goes on to invite a response from this forum and what does he get?

 

Virtual silence.

 

The only person who had the courage to speak out in demand of answers was Patrnflyr (post 255 etc).

 

Shame on you all!

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Shame on you all!

 

I can't imagine in my wildest dreams paying cash up front to someone in a foreign country and finding out eventually that I made a big mistake.

 

My CT was sitting in front of me when I wrote the check and I left a bank on the hook for most of it.

 

I feel for the guys that have been ripped off and I detest FD for it but I don't feel any shame.

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Nearly 9 years ago I started down the path of LSA ownership and did the usual research that all of do.  I flew several LSA's and picked a particular model that required a $10K deposit and signed a contract with delivery promised in 3 months.  3 months came and went with no plane.  Delivery date was continually pushed back by 1 month.  The US distributor was very responsive but, in the end, admitted they had no idea when my plane would arrive.  Fortunately, my deposit never left the States and the US distributor refunded my deposit without argument (after 6 months of waiting).  Me and a fellow buyer then went on a search for in stock planes (many distributors had stock back then) and visited several dealers from Texas to the east coast.  We each found and test flew the planes we now own.  I would be very hesitant to order any LSA today unless monies are held in a neutral escrow with clearly stated refund clauses that are administered by a neutral party.

 

Those events described in this forum are deplorable and given this is a public forum it may behoove FD or FD USA to take some kind of action.  Search engines are wonderful creatures and future buyers will likely pull these posts up when doing research.

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My silence comes from two things. First, although it bothers me, I don't think I can contribute anything meaningful other than to say I would be very angry. Second, I was hoping to hear something that would point one way or the other. I will keep my LS no matter what happens.

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I have. There isn't much he can do. His contractual obligations require that he not speak on any subject without FD Germany's blessing, he can't even hint if he knew anything (besides, this is dangerous territory to tread in, any sane person wouldn't speak even if they could due to legal repercussions). Other than that though, the whole FDUSA team seems really sincere.

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I'm with Corey, FDUSA is top notch.  When I was having a major problem, I was on the phone every couple of days with Tom himself.  He promised action, and he delivered.  I have had zero complaints with the entire FDUSA team.

 

I have no experience with FD Europe, and any contract I've had with the German side has been mediated through FDUSA.  so I'm not in position to say anything substantive other than my opinion that if what others have posted with regard to delays and non-communication is true, litigation should be involved.   

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I agree with Andy regarding FDUSA's support and response.  I requested FDUSA (Tom Peghiny) support two times with different issues and this was provided.  There is no one at FDUSA to pass the buck.  Just Tom there to "make it happen".  When I have talked to him it is apparent that he wants to help FD owners and he makes an effort to do so.  Still , he in turn relies on support from FD Germany and there are limits as to what he can accomplish due to this.

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Thanks Dick - I respect you for calling for answers.

 

Most of us, whether we admit it or not, subscribe to a kind of relative morality - we'll object when wrongdoing adversely affects us, but we'll tolerate it in silence as long as it doesn't come near us, and particularly so if we have something to lose by speaking out. 

 

In post 248, under Delivery and Delay Problems, DECZR outlines a litany of unethical behaviour.  (In any other context, many on this forum would use the term 'ripped off' to describe it.)   He goes on to invite a response from this forum and what does he get?

 

Virtual silence.

 

The only person who had the courage to speak out in demand of answers was Patrnflyr (post 255 etc).

 

Shame on you all!

 

This post is inconsistent and untrue, I personally have stated that the kind of treatment that some customers have been getting in Europe was "deplorable".

So it makes me wonder about the veracity of the OP's story. He wants you to use the language he wants instead of the appropriate words, I wonder.

 

Cheers

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Ralarcon - not sure what you mean by the 'OP', but I'm guessing it's Original Poster - ?

 

Hi Al,  I know you're frustrated, but shaming other CT owners is not going to make people more sympathetic to your cause.

 

Cluemeister, I don't have a cause - my only motivation for posting is in support of fair play.  

 

Yes, I suppose you could call it frustration - I'm frustrated that a company with a very small client base and a high value product can get away with such unethical behaviour in full view of a significant section of its client base without being called to account a bit more vigorously than has been the case on this forum.

 

My strong language was an attempt to solicit this.........

 

Just put yourself in these peoples' shoes for a minute.  

 

And then consider the glowing reports of the recent FAA 'thumbs up' to the FD factory in Germany as though everything was just honky dory, while in actual fact they are withholding hundreds of thousand of dollars from individuals who paid upfront in good faith and are now stone-walling them when they ask for their money back.   

 

Call me stupid or old fashioned if you will,  but I was taught to speak out against such things, and I think the world is a worse place when we say nothing.

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What would you have us do? It upsets me. I feel for those folks. I hope the lawsuit gets results and maybe creates better priorities for the company. I hope they are not going under.

On the other hand I know absolutely nothing about German law except the do not have trial by jury. I have no idea how to contact the company to express my concerns. Anything I send will be referred to FDUSA, and Tom generally monitors this forum and others have contacted him. I suspect the question will come up at the Light Sport Expo in a couple of weeks.

You can speak out all you want on this forum, but it won't amount to much except informing us and we are all on the same side. (On this issue.)

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And then consider the glowing reports of the recent FAA 'thumbs up' to the FD factory in Germany as though everything was just honky dory, while in actual fact they are withholding hundreds of thousand of dollars from individuals who paid upfront in good faith and are now stone-walling them when they ask for their money back.   

 

 

The audit was for technical compliance with the ASTM LSA standards, not a forensic accounting audit.  FAA does not have any jurisdiction over business practices, that would probably be the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) or Consumer Protection Agency.

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The audit was for technical compliance with the ASTM LSA standards, not a forensic accounting audit.  FAA does not have any jurisdiction over business practices, that would probably be the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) or Consumer Protection Agency.

That's a fair comment.  My point was that, from DECZR's point of view, the company that's holding his money while refusing his calls is presenting to Americans the impression that 'everything is normal'.  That must be truly galling.

 

Of course, FD USA and Europe are separate legal entities, but they are also linked and, in many ways, inextricably so.

 

I hope FD survives - I love their products and where they are going.  

 

But hey - FD Germany, for heaven's sake, answer your longstanding and patient customer's enquiry about his money!

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That is the beauty of an Internet forum. Anyone considering a new FD will more than likely do a google search to find a CT FD forum to read what customers are saying about their aircraft. In such a search (at least for me) this forum came up first. I have a hunch that unlike me, for every 100 potential customers of this aircraft, only one joins the forum, the others just browse the posts. This thread might have those 99 that may not be in the States considering something else.

 

For me, I trust a forum that is run by owners of the product more than a forum hosted by the manufacturer of said product for obvious reasons of negative comments being deleted from a company hosted forum.

 

Keep up the good work, it might save someone outside the States a lot of aggravation.  

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  • 1 month later...

You hit the nail on the head. That is exactly what is / was happening for some years now. FD ONLY took care of the US market, being their biggest and most important, but the rest of the world suffered stories like mine. I paid my MC in March and November 2012 to a full 100%, and have not received delivery. So I sued FD Germany. And now with the insolvency, who knows if I ever get my money back...

I believe that a lot of future C4 owners are present day CTLSi owners who have purchased their LSA's in order to be automatically placed at the front of the line to get a C4.  Information presented on this forum indicates that there are European, Asian and Australian owners who have purchased CTLSi's by pre-paying full price for their planes who state that they are waiting an awful long time to receive them. Worse yet, comments indicate after waiting for one or two years for delivery and still not seeing their planes, they get no response from FD Germany when they call the factory to find out when (if?) their CTLSi will be delivered.  One might expect there's going to be less and less potential C4 buyers who opt to first buy a CTLSi  in Europe, Asia and Australia. And, perhaps there will be less potential outright C4 buyers due to the lack of communication they read about between FD Germany and it's paid-up customers?  It appears that U.S. buyers are getting their CTLSi's?  Still not clear on this either.  IMO, FD Germany cannot expect to remain a top seller of LSA aircraft and to successfully compete in the highly competitive 4 place GA arena if it is fact that FD Germany refuses to communicate with it's customers who have paid for but not seen any delivery of their planes.  As for me personally, I am not comfortable having to rely on news clips to know if the company I rely on for parts and expert advice in order to safely maintain my aircraft is still in existence. For those who have purchased but not seen delivery of their CT's, I cannot imagine a poorer example of a lack of communication between a seller and buyer, if what we read about here is true.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hello All,

 

Has there been any news of the production of the C4 in light of the financial reorganization of FD?  I'm on the Early Bird list, and I want to go the ownership route now that I am about to retire, but I guess I'll join a flight club and see what shakes out.  When I first read the specs and cost of the C4, it sounded too good to be true.  Now I'm afraid it might turn out that way.

 

 

Sam

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Hello All,

 

Has there been any news of the production of the C4 in light of the financial reorganization of FD?  I'm on the Early Bird list, and I want to go the ownership route now that I am about to retire, but I guess I'll join a flight club and see what shakes out.  When I first read the specs and cost of the C4, it sounded too good to be true.  Now I'm afraid it might turn out that way.

 

 

Sam

 

I think you're right.  What would you buy if the C4 doesn't come through?

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