FastEddieB Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 I keep it simple too, sometimes I actually steer. And lived??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 If you call this living Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted March 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 LOL. I rarely use autopilot, and I didn't around Orlando. Just used the GPS to tell me where to turn to avoid an FAA letter. Autopilot is mainly a fatigue reducer on very long flights. I generally like to fly, which is why I got an airplane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbigs Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 Will it allow you to do so while in flight and the AP engaged? If so, that's pretty cool. No portable tablet will be allowed to drive an autopilot....think about it...suppose you are flying along on a route and the wireless signal is lost or worse the battery gives out...you are a little out of trim and the nose spikes up or down... or you are in a turn and you just keep going straight (CFIT)...this will never be allowed. An autopilot is critical in IFR and an absolute necessity on long VFR cross country flights. Coupled approaches are a major advancement for example. I used my Dynon autopilot half the time I flew in the FD. I will be using the GFC 700 90% of the time in the Cirrus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 An autopilot is ...an absolute necessity on long VFR cross country flights. Absolutely, demonstrably false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted March 4, 2016 Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 No portable tablet will be allowed to drive an autopilot....think about it...suppose you are flying along on a route and the wireless signal is lost or worse the battery gives out...you are a little out of trim and the nose spikes up or down... or you are in a turn and you just keep going straight (CFIT)...this will never be allowed. An autopilot is critical in IFR and an absolute necessity on long VFR cross country flights. Coupled approaches are a major advancement for example. I used my Dynon autopilot half the time I flew in the FD. I will be using the GFC 700 90% of the time in the Cirrus. All those long trips I took in an airplane with no radio or GPS, it's a wonder I'm still alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Posted March 4, 2016 Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 All those long trips I took in an airplane with no radio or GPS, it's a wonder I'm still alive. It's because you had GCS on board....not everybody's case Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomH Posted March 4, 2016 Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 No flight plan in a tablet can be flown by an autopilot via a wireless interface. Literally true but functionally not entirely true. As mentioned Garmin was late to the game with it and despite no vertical navigation, Dynon Wi-Fi adapter equipped Skyview units can accept navigational flight plans directly from Foreflght. Have been able to now for 14 months since v12.0. And receive ADS-B, telemetry for synthetic vision, etc. Once you've flown with it it's hard to give up. Avidyne is also days away from direct Wi-Fi integration with ForeFlight with their IFD series. Twist, push, twist, push... those days are gone. Rubber-band, upload, done. Don't forget to look outside! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted March 4, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 Yes. Now I have another reason to be jealous of your avionics. Like I needed another one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cluemeister Posted March 4, 2016 Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 Are we approaching the point where the iPad would become the unofficial PFD, and you would have steam gauges as official primary but actually used as backup? Seems like it would be a lot cheaper than trying to keep up with avionic technology changes. "Oh, you've got that old Garmin G3X? That's so two years ago." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbigs Posted March 4, 2016 Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 Are we approaching the point where the iPad would become the unofficial PFD, and you would have steam gauges as official primary but actually used as backup? Seems like it would be a lot cheaper than trying to keep up with avionic technology changes. "Oh, you've got that old Garmin G3X? That's so two years ago." Tablets can't be a PFD or a navigation unit tied to one. They are a backup display to nav units that show route tracking. They are an EFB and a flight planning tool. But those plans MUST be uploaded to the nav unit before they can be flown by an autopilot in enroute and approach mode. With a Garmin Flightstream a tablet with GP or Foreflight can get a wireless interface to upload plans and download ADS-B traffic, ADS-B weather and moving maps in realtime. Which is pretty slick. In my new Cirrus I have the Perspective G1000 for PFD/MFD. Four radios, two com, two nav. The GFC700 autopilot, flightstream. And the 2-inch 4-1 Mid-Continent MD302 Standby Module (glass panel backup). There are no round guages in the 2016 Cirrus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted March 4, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 With inputs from an AHARS and pitot/static systems, either wired or wireless, there is no technical reason a tablet could not act as a PFD for an airplane. Whether that would be a desirable instrumentation configuration is left as an exercise to the individual pilot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbigs Posted March 4, 2016 Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 With inputs from an AHARS and pitot/static systems, either wired or wireless, there is no technical reason a tablet could not act as a PFD for an airplane. Whether that would be a desirable instrumentation configuration is left as an exercise to the individual pilot. Not just with a pilot but with the FAA. Notice a panel mounted portable that is hardwired to the PFD is not allowed to be the WAAS/GPS for ADS-B. And those units are tied to the planes power system. Tablets are restricted from such connectivity by the FAA. Tablets can only be used to reduce paper (EFB) and as an augmentation to situational awareness (not as a backup to anything on the panel). And only if the tablet does not interfere or distract with the operation of the aircraft. http://ipadpilotnews.com/2016/02/ipad-legal-briefing-pilots-need-know-2/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted March 4, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 Not just with a pilot but with the FAA. Notice a panel mounted portable that is hardwired to the PFD is not allowed to be the WAAS/GPS for ADS-B. And those units are tied to the planes power system. Tablets are restricted from such connectivity by the FAA. Tablets can only be used to reduce paper (EFB) and as an augmentation to situational awareness (not as a backup to anything on the panel). And only if the tablet does not interfere or distract with the operation of the aircraft. http://ipadpilotnews.com/2016/02/ipad-legal-briefing-pilots-need-know-2/ No they are not. Minimum equipment for the type of flight is specified in the FARs. Other than the TSO requirement for Part 23 aircraft, HOW those instrumentation requirements are met are not specified. Experimental and LSA aircraft are free to use whatever type of instrumentation they like. If you can find me a FAR reference that states that a tablet, phone, or any other device receiving proper data input may not be used for altitude, airspeed, heading, or any other instrumentation, I will eat crow on this. But it's not in there so I think our avian friends are safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted March 4, 2016 Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 http://www.bydanjohnson.com/index.cfm?b=6&m=5&id=76 Enough said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbigs Posted March 4, 2016 Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 No they are not. Minimum equipment for the type of flight is specified in the FARs. Other than the TSO requirement for Part 23 aircraft, HOW those instrumentation requirements are met are not specified. Experimental and LSA aircraft are free to use whatever type of instrumentation they like. If you can find me a FAR reference that states that a tablet, phone, or any other device receiving proper data input may not be used for altitude, airspeed, heading, or any other instrumentation, I will eat crow on this. But it's not in there so I think our avian friends are safe. A tablet can only be used as an EFB. It cannot be used as a a PFD, as a backup PFD or in any way other than an augmented sit awareness tool. The FAA AC and FAR are listed in this article: http://ipadpilotnews...ts-need-know-2/ What is interesting is how FD is able to configure a portable nav device like the Garmin 796 and have it drive the Dynon HSI and autopilot in the CT. I am guessing the panel mount with it's lock screw somehow qualifies it as a semi-permanent mounted device. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted March 4, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 A tablet can only be used as an EFB. It cannot be used as a a PFD, as a backup PFD or in any way other than an augmented sit awareness tool. The FAA AC and FAR are listed in this article: http://ipadpilotnews...ts-need-know-2/ What is interesting is how FD is able to configure a portable nav device like the Garmin 796 and have it drive the Dynon HSI and autopilot in the CT. I am guessing the panel mount with it's lock screw somehow qualifies it as a semi-permanent mounted device. There is not one word in the FARs quoted in that article prohibiting use of a tablet as a PFD. They are simply discussing the different classes of EFBs, which are used for briefing and flight planning purposes, not instrumentation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted March 5, 2016 Report Share Posted March 5, 2016 A tablet can only be used as an EFB. It cannot be used as a a PFD, as a backup PFD or in any way other than an augmented sit awareness tool. The FAA AC and FAR are listed in this article: http://ipadpilotnews...ts-need-know-2/ What is interesting is how FD is able to configure a portable nav device like the Garmin 796 and have it drive the Dynon HSI and autopilot in the CT. I am guessing the panel mount with it's lock screw somehow qualifies it as a semi-permanent mounted device. You do know that advisory circulars are advisory in nature only, unless it is called out specifically in a FAR. The FAR listed in the article is for air carriers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishAl Posted March 5, 2016 Report Share Posted March 5, 2016 Are we approaching the point where the iPad would become the unofficial PFD, and you would have steam gauges as official primary but actually used as backup? Seems like it would be a lot cheaper than trying to keep up with avionic technology changes. "Oh, you've got that old Garmin G3X? That's so two years ago." I think the answer is unquestionably 'yes'. The main weakness in using this system as a PFD is the screen brightness, but that's got to be only a matter of time.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishAl Posted March 5, 2016 Report Share Posted March 5, 2016 Here's an aircraft with nothing in the panel but two iPads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbigs Posted March 5, 2016 Report Share Posted March 5, 2016 The iPad is commercial-off-the-shelf (COTS) electronic hardware that is not approved or certified by the FAA. However, it can be authorized for use by a principal operations inspector if it meets the EFB criteria discussed in FSIMS, volume 4, chapter 15, section 1 and AC 120-76A. http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/b5de2a1cac2e1f7b86256ced00786888/$FILE/AC%20120-76A.pdf The role of the AC system is to clarify and expand on REGULATIONS and regulatory language by the FAA. http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/1320.46C.pdf I am reiterating this for those who are curious and want to know what the rules are...especially if the FAA catches you attempting to use your iPad/Stratus as a PFD on a ramp or after the crash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted March 5, 2016 Report Share Posted March 5, 2016 The iPad is commercial-off-the-shelf (COTS) electronic hardware that is not approved or certified by the FAA. However, it can be authorized for use by a principal operations inspector if it meets the EFB criteria discussed in FSIMS, volume 4, chapter 15, section 1 and AC 120-76A. http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/b5de2a1cac2e1f7b86256ced00786888/$FILE/AC%20120-76A.pdf The role of the AC system is to clarify and expand on REGULATIONS and regulatory language by the FAA. http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/1320.46C.pdf I am reiterating this for those who are curious and want to know what the rules are...especially if the FAA catches you attempting to use your iPad/Stratus as a PFD on a ramp or after the crash. From your 2 links. This AC does not constitute a regulation but sets forth an acceptable means, but not the only means, for operators conducting flight operations under Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) part 91, 121, 125, 129, or 135, to obtain both certification and approval for the operational use of EFBs. What the AC System is. The AC system: a. Provides guidance such as methods, procedures, and practices acceptable to the Administrator for complying with regulations and grant requirements. ACs may also contain explanations of regulations, other guidance material, best practices, or information useful to the aviation community. They do not create or change a regulatory requirement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted March 5, 2016 Report Share Posted March 5, 2016 Your problem is you say something without think about what you say. Someone calls you out on it and you dig a deeper hole trying to prove you are right. The simple fact is a Ipad can be used as a PFD in an experimental or special light sport aircraft. It how ever can't be used as a PFD in a certified aircraft, at least not yet. It would be possible for someone to STC a unit that uses a Ipad as a display in their approved installation. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted March 5, 2016 Report Share Posted March 5, 2016 As tom says, that's an AC, and not regulatory. In addition, most ACs are for standard airworthiness/type certificated products; one of the first lessons mechanics and pilots need to learn when dealing with anything NOT standard airworthiness, is to set aside the regs book and start with the airworthiness certificate. It takes a bit of doing to drop your preconceptions when dealing with experimentals and LSAs as most material is written with standard airworthiness in mind, and sifting through all of it takes a while. Instruments and acceptable practices regarding them is one of those items that takes a lot of sifting. Standard airworthiness requires compliant instrumentations because they are Type Certificated, which is what the regs are primarily written for. One part of note is 14 CFR 21.9, which the headline reads "(a) If a person knows, or should know, that a replacement or modification article is reasonably likely to be installed on a type-certificated product, the person may not produce that article unless it is—". This is to address maintenance of type certificated aircraft. Part 23 applies for issuance of type certificates (25 for large aircraft). I'm not going to even try to paraphrase that part, it's a giant part. Just know that stuff has to have approvals to be installed, and an iPad COULD be used on type certificated aircraft if they become approved, but that's never going to happen unless they go through TSO compliance. LSAs and experimentals are not type certificated. S-LSAs have to follow what the ASTM says, but unless someone wants to buy a copy of the relevant section, we won't know exactly what they say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George in San Diego Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 Forgive me for my ignorance, but it's my understanding that anything installed in the CTLS as part of the original factory equipment list can not be changed without a Letter of Approval from FD. I would assume the aircraft's only navigational device, namely the 496 in my 2008 model, would certainly meet that regulation. One could ADD a "portable" GPS of one's choice, but don't we need an LOA to REPLACE the 496 with new 660 or any other GPS? -George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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