Your opinion on adding weight to improve landings

[Scott Lee]

what flap setting were you using?

15

 

I plan on practicing more low approaches in a cross wind.  Thanks for the diagrams.

[FastEddieB]

I posted this before, but if you missed it its my attempt at the "Runway Sideslip Drill" in my Sky Arrow:

 

 

It's a worthwhile exercise to get/keep your hands and feet working together in a crosswind.

 

The little piece of yarn really show how the plane moves "sideways" in the air mass to move from one side of the runway to the other.

[gbigs]

I suggest you reconsider that advice...

He advises using a forward slip all the way down, but then proceeds to describe a side slip.

 

Not true.  Read it again.  And you can use a forward slip all the way because the CT has a very forgiving and low stall speed.  Crabbing is also okay, but why try to perfect a harder technique when you can simply do the slip all the way....

[Tom Baker]

Not true.  Read it again.  And you can use a forward slip all the way because the CT has a very forgiving and low stall speed.  Crabbing is also okay, but why try to perfect a harder technique when you can simply do the slip all the way....

Nope! He prety much hit the nail on th head. Maybe you should go back and learn the difference between a forward slip and a side slip.

[FastEddieB]

The vast majority of pilots I've flown with approach in a crab, and establish their side slip during the roundout and flare. It only seems "harder" if you've not been properly trained to do it.

 

Side slipping all the way in on final is certainly doable, but not the norm.

 

As an aside, my Cirrus POH warned against extended slips of more than 30 seconds with fuel less than 1/4 tank in either wing. Just to point out that some planes in some circumstances might not like very long slips on final.

[GravityKnight]

Another thing to throw out there in the slip vs. crab when coming in with a stiff crosswind discussion is this (and maybe it was covered). If you find yourself a little low or slow on final, use the crab method (if you are comfortable with it of course)... it's more efficient as far as making the runway. If you are a little high or fast, maybe throw it into a runway aligning slip and bring it in that way... I know this sounds dumb and obvious, because many of us slip a plane when coming in to burn up some extra altitude, or making a steeper approach over an obstacle... but I think when there is a crosswind involved, and your talking about slipping it to remain aligned with the runway, your doing it for a different reason, and maybe not really thinking about the fact that it is not as efficient.

 

A few years back, I know I wasn't thinking about it this way, I was just flying a slip to get set up for the x-wind landing... now that I do mostly short field type stuff, where not bringing in a bunch of extra speed is really important and I want to hit my mark, I look at it a little differently. Flying the crab in and in 1 quick maneuver aligning yourself over the runway and dipping a wing before touchdown is really fun, and in a strong x-wind you can really see the airspeed just die when you do it and take your wings out of the oncoming wind.

[Ed Cesnalis]

Aerodynamically there is no distinction.

 

Mentally (relative to the runway) on approach we use a forward slip to steepen the approach and a side slip for crosswind alignment.

[IrishAl]

There's a lot of confusion around in English speaking countries over the two phrases, side slip and forward slip.

 

Over here, we call a forward slip a side slip.  I'm not kidding.   And we call a side slip a 'wing down approach'.

 

I presume we call the forward slip a side slip because you're flying sideways into the relative wind.   (And then, because there's no name left for the side slip, we've invented a new one for it.)

 

But we're wrong, and the Americans are right, because in the 'wing down approach' the plane is slipping sideways, so it's a side slip.  A forward slip is not a side slip (as we call it) because the direction of the slip is forwards, not sideways.

 

Is that clear, or is it just more confusing...?"!

[FastEddieB]

 

I presume we call the forward slip a side slip because you're flying sideways into the relative wind.

 

 

Since both slips are aerodynamically the same, both are "flying sideways into the relative wind".

 

Taking the American nomenclature...

 

In a forward slip you lower one wing and apply opposite rudder to keep the plane from turning. Whereas...

 

In a side slip you lower one wing and apply opposite rudder to keep the plane from turning.

 

See what I did there?

[Ed Cesnalis]

Since both slips are aerodynamically the same, both are "flying sideways into the relative wind".

 

Taking the American nomenclature...

 

In a forward slip you lower one wing and apply opposite rudder to keep the plane from turning. Whereas...

 

In a side slip you lower one wing and apply opposite rudder to keep the plane from turning.

 

See what I did there?

 

 

Both slips prevent turns in a steady state wind only.

[gbigs]

Both slips prevent turns in a steady state wind only.

 

Nothing works in a wind shear.  But the forward slip works in a xwind. 

[IrishAl]

 

I presume we call the forward slip a side slip because you're flying sideways into the relative wind.

Sorry, what I meant to say is:  

 

"I presume we call it a side slip because you're flying sideways along your track."

[Ed Cesnalis]

Nothing works in a wind shear.  But the forward slip works in a xwind. 

 

You use the term as they do in Ireland, in America we use a side slip to remain aligned in a xwind.

[gbigs]

I was interested in helping Scott lee deal with his xwind landing issue. 

 

Getting bogged down in what country uses what term for side and forward slipping is a thread drift.   The essence of the maneuver is still  use aileron to keep the upwind wing low, use rudder to align the nose so it points down the runway.

 

This maneuver can be used as we all know in combination with crab or can be done all the way on approach to landing to keep the plane aligned with the runway.  Crabbing the plane requires a slightly more complicated skill to straighten the plane just prior to leveling out and then slipping to the runway and landing on one wheel.

 

Scott...IMHO  xwind landing in the CT is the hardest part of flying the plane.  

[coppercity]

From my experience teaching for many years in the CT most landing issues come from the incorrect perception of "straight" in the CT during landing.  The CT offers the pilot little in the way of visual cues to aid in orienting the nose straight with the centerline due to its exceptional visibility from the cockpit.  Pilots with limited experience in the CT will find themselves fighting drifting near the ground because what they perceive as straight in reality is crooked (usually nose left) and drifting left.  This makes the pilot feel the CT is difficult because of trying to fix the results of this incorrect perception (artificial crosswinds) low to the ground.  Couple that with a light wing loading, sensitive controls and a good bit of adverse yawing tendency and it really begins to feel like a handful.  The best way to overcome this is to do lots of low approaches and learn the proper perception of straight.  You will likely find 0 flap approaches the easiest to manage at first then 15 flap.  You really need to learn straight prior to attempting 30 and 35 flap landings.  Try keeping the runway centerline under your butt and following your legs forward, it will seem like the nose is crabbed to the right to you sitting in the left seat but it is much closer to being straight then you think. 

[FastEddieB]

Can you see the nose enough that a piece of pinstriping tape or equivalent lined up with the plane's longitudinal axis might help?

[Mick]

I helped my landings (runway alignment)by putting a short yellow piece of tape on the

mushroom, aligned with the A/C center line and directly in front of me. The problem is

made worse by the fact that we sit slightly turned to the right by the narrowing of the

body, (rudder pedals closer to the center line than our butt)

After a few years we do not need the "yellow crutch" anymore.

[gbigs]

The sight picture in the CT is unique and difficult...this is because the nose is short and drops off.  The 'standard' technique is to put the centerline between your legs and ignore the nose (it will appear to be to the right of the centerline but that is an illusion).  

 

Also the correct 'flare' seems too high as the nose rises to almost hide the end of the runway.   It takes a while to trust the odd site view and the nose high flare...but deviating will either result in a side-load or a nose-wheel first landing leading to a possible runway excursion and/or bounce. 

 

The good news about the CT is you can fly the entire approach on idle just using the nose to maintain the 62kias.   And the plane only needs 3 to 4 hundred feet of runway so you can choose to land further down any runway if you are a little high and need room to correct.

[FastEddieB]

 

The good news about the CT is you can fly the entire approach on idle just using the nose to maintain the 62kias.

You are aware that this applies to virtually all smaller GA aircraft, changing just the target airspeed for the particular plane in question.

 

The CT seems to be a fine plane, but is hardly unique in that respect.

[gbigs]

You are aware that this applies to virtually all smaller GA aircraft, changing just the target airspeed for the particular plane in question.

 

The CT seems to be a fine plane, but is hardly unique in that respect.

 

Not for the new Cirrus SR22T.  20% power min on approach is required in a standard circuit.  And if I recall, the Zodiak CH650 also required some throttle on approach.

[FastEddieB]

I'd be willing to bet that both of those examples can be landed successfully at idle from pattern altitude.

 

All it takes is training specific to the aircraft.

[gbigs]

I'd be willing to bet that both of those examples can be landed successfully at idle from pattern altitude.

 

All it takes is training specific to the aircraft.

 

You will lose your bet.    Especially on the SR22T.  The only thing that has varied in the SR22T landings having flown in it now with a half dozen Platinum CSIPs and practicing on my own is whether to come in at 30% throttle or 20% throttle.

[FastEddieB]

Are you really digging in and saying it is not possible to glide to a power-off landing from pattern altitude in a Cirrus SR22T?

 

Really?

 

[Scott Lee]

 

From my experience teaching for many years in the CT most landing issues come from the incorrect perception of "straight" in the CT during landing.  The CT offers the pilot little in the way of visual cues to aid in orienting the nose straight with the centerline due to its exceptional visibility from the cockpit.  Pilots with limited experience in the CT will find themselves fighting drifting near the ground because what they perceive as straight in reality is crooked (usually nose left) and drifting left.  This makes the pilot feel the CT is difficult because of trying to fix the results of this incorrect perception (artificial crosswinds) low to the ground.  Couple that with a light wing loading, sensitive controls and a good bit of adverse yawing tendency and it really begins to feel like a handful.  The best way to overcome this is to do lots of low approaches and learn the proper perception of straight.  You will likely find 0 flap approaches the easiest to manage at first then 15 flap.  You really need to learn straight prior to attempting 30 and 35 flap landings.  Try keeping the runway centerline under your butt and following your legs forward, it will seem like the nose is crabbed to the right to you sitting in the left seat but it is much closer to being straight then you think. 

 

Eric, I think you hit the nail on the head because I try to go straight and end up drifting left.  I'll do a bunch of low approaches.  I think I'll also try the tape idea.  Reviewing my log book I have over 200 CT landings and still feel like a klutz. 

[Roger Lee]

Hi Scott,

 

If you keep drifting left then this is common amongst newer CT fliers. Trim the rudder wheel back towards the left a little, but you really need to add more right rudder pedal on landing. It will not drift anymore.