Speeds Approaching Airport

[andyb]

One of the biggest challenges for me, with over 2,000 landings in the Cirrus prior to purchasing the CTLSi, was getting the pattern speeds right.  Part of the challenge for me was that my idle RPM was set too high (thanks Tom Baker for seeing and fixing that), and I was instinctively adding power on final due to the slower speed and higher pitch angle than I was used to.  I think I've finally gotten all that under control.

 

At the same time, my approach to the airport seems glacially slow, and I expect I'm slowing down WAY too soon/too far away.  During my transition training, I was instructed to be at 75 kts 0 deg flaps on the downwind, apply 15 deg flaps when abeam the touchdown point, then go to 55-60 kts on final (different for no flap or full flap).  That all seems reasonable.  The question relates to speed and distance prior to reaching the airport.  Assuming I'm descending and coming in at 115-120 knots, how far away from the airport is best to slow down to <100 knots to move from -6 to 0 deg flaps?  I expect I'm moving to 0 deg flaps too early, due to my concern about getting to 75 kts on the downwind.  And, once at 0 deg flaps,  how far away to slow down to get to 75 kts.?

 

Appreciate any input.

 

Andy

[gbigs]

One of the biggest challenges for me, with over 2,000 landings in the Cirrus prior to purchasing the CTLSi, was getting the pattern speeds right.  Part of the challenge for me was that my idle RPM was set too high (thanks Tom Baker for seeing and fixing that), and I was instinctively adding power on final due to the slower speed and higher pitch angle than I was used to.  I think I've finally gotten all that under control.

 

At the same time, my approach to the airport seems glacially slow, and I expect I'm slowing down WAY too soon/too far away.  During my transition training, I was instructed to be at 75 kts 0 deg flaps on the downwind, apply 15 deg flaps when abeam the touchdown point, then go to 55-60 kts on final (different for no flap or full flap).  That all seems reasonable.  The question relates to speed and distance prior to reaching the airport.  Assuming I'm descending and coming in at 115-120 knots, how far away from the airport is best to slow down to <100 knots to move from -6 to 0 deg flaps?  I expect I'm moving to 0 deg flaps too early, due to my concern about getting to 75 kts on the downwind.  And, once at 0 deg flaps,  how far away to slow down to get to 75 kts.?

 

Appreciate any input.

 

Andy

 

The nice thing about the CT is how easy it is to descend and how quickly you can get from a mere 110kts to 62kts on final.  Fly as fast as you want to within 10mi of the airport then set flaps to 0 and cut power to idle and pitch descend and enter on a 45 into mid downwind and pattern altitude.  Once there level out and add power to maintain pattern altitude till you get abeam the numbers.   Cut power and add 15 degree flaps and pitch into your base turn descending to 1/2 pattern altitude by mid base.  Cut power to idle and pitch for 62kts from base to approach and over the numbers.  Level out and complete your landing.

[Anticept]

One of the biggest challenges for me, with over 2,000 landings in the Cirrus prior to purchasing the CTLSi, was getting the pattern speeds right.  Part of the challenge for me was that my idle RPM was set too high (thanks Tom Baker for seeing and fixing that), and I was instinctively adding power on final due to the slower speed and higher pitch angle than I was used to.  I think I've finally gotten all that under control.

 

At the same time, my approach to the airport seems glacially slow, and I expect I'm slowing down WAY too soon/too far away.  During my transition training, I was instructed to be at 75 kts 0 deg flaps on the downwind, apply 15 deg flaps when abeam the touchdown point, then go to 55-60 kts on final (different for no flap or full flap).  That all seems reasonable.  The question relates to speed and distance prior to reaching the airport.  Assuming I'm descending and coming in at 115-120 knots, how far away from the airport is best to slow down to <100 knots to move from -6 to 0 deg flaps?  I expect I'm moving to 0 deg flaps too early, due to my concern about getting to 75 kts on the downwind.  And, once at 0 deg flaps,  how far away to slow down to get to 75 kts.?

 

Appreciate any input.

 

Andy

 

I flew a mooney. I had to plan my decent for 10 miles every thousand feet, it covered ground so fast.

 

Anyways, CTs are slick, but lightweight, so they lose energy fast when you remove power. You'll find a happy medium if you keep practicing. Biggest thing is don't go bowling in the pattern, get slowed down before you enter downwind.

[FastEddieB]

Andy,

 

Compared to our Cirrus's, I've found slowing down a Light Sport to be a non-issue, requiring little or no planning.

 

At the risk of starting another debate, at non-towered airports I virtually always overfly them about 500' above the pattern first. No reason I can see not to do that at or near normal cruise.

 

I then get clear of the pattern and throttle way back to descend to pattern altitude to enter at a 45° midfield downwind. Leveling off there puts me pretty close to 65k kinda automatically.

 

Others may do it differently, but that rough procedure has held me in good stead for my entire flying career.

 

Bop on over to Copperhill some time and we can compare notes!

[Tom Baker]

I fly and teach my patterns a little different than you describe. Come over sometime and I will get you straightened out.

[Ed Cesnalis]

CTs are clean LSA.

 

Power reductions are generally all I need to slow down except for slowing to 100kts for zero flaps.  I try to go to zero while still 2 miles from the pattern and if that isn't working out I just pitch the nose up a few degrees for a few seconds. I will tell the passenger that I'm pitching up for a moment to get flaps speed.

[FlyingMonkey]

CTs are clean LSA.

 

Power reductions are generally all I need to slow down except for slowing to 100kts for zero flaps.  I try to go to zero while still 2 miles from the pattern and if that isn't working out I just pitch the nose up a few degrees for a few seconds. I will tell the passenger that I'm pitching up for a moment to get flaps speed.

 

Pretty much what I do.  At ~2 miles, reduce throttle as necessary to drop below 100kt, then go to 0° flaps.  I slow to about 80kt in the pattern, usually ~3800rpm at 0°.  No need to haul ass at 100kt+ in the pattern unless you are spacing with another airplane.

[coppercity]

Hi Andy,

 

I think I sent you our SOP at one time but in general we teach a cruise power descent to within a couple miles of the airport.  Upon arrival at pattern altitude on a couple mile 45 deg entry to the downwind leg reduce power to 4500rpm.  Think "On the 45, reduce to 45"  this will put you below 100KIAS to set flaps to 0 deg.  As the CT slows while you maintain altitude you will arrive in the downwind around 80KIAS with little to no power change required, from there you are at the next flap speed if desired.

[Ed Cesnalis]

Compared to our Cirrus's, I've found slowing down a Light Sport to be a non-issue, requiring little or no planning.

 

At the risk of starting another debate, at non-towered airports I virtually always overfly them about 500' above the pattern first. No reason I can see not to do that at or near normal cruise.

 

I then get clear of the pattern and throttle way back to descend to pattern altitude to enter at a 45° midfield downwind. Leveling off there puts me pretty close to 65k kinda automatically.

 

Others may do it differently, but that rough procedure has held me in good stead for my entire flying career.

 

Bop on over to Copperhill some time and we can compare notes!

 

 

What works in a sky arrow won't work in a ct due to the speed difference.  When you overfly at cruise you already have the 100kt IAS we need for flaps. If that is a little off certainly you can get to 100kt IAS with a throttle reduction where a ct would need the throttle reduction and time to slow down.

[FastEddieB]

What works in a sky arrow won't work in a ct due to the speed difference.

OK. A CT is cleaner - granted.

 

I just have a hard time visualizing that from overhead the airport at 120k one could not get slowed down while maneuvering to enter the 45.

 

Maybe Andy can fly up one day and we can try it.

[Ed Cesnalis]

I just have a hard time visualizing that from overhead the airport at 120k one could not get slowed down while maneuvering to enter the 45.

 

 

Now you are imposing both a mid-field cross and a 120k speed which might not be the case but even 20kts takes time to bleed off especially if you are approaching/descending and reluctant to make large throttle reductions.  If you cross mid-field and then 'maneuver' to enter the 45 you would indeed have the time you need.

 

I do my descents at 5,500rpm and 500fpm and at that I have to think ahead.  As long as I get to zero flaps before I enter downwind or short final no additional planning is needed.

 

When I pitch up to get flap speed it feels like needing throttle on final, an unplanned correction.

[FastEddieB]

Now you are imposing both a mid-field cross and a 120k speed

As I did in my first post to the thread.

[Ed Cesnalis]

As I did in my first post to the thread.

 

 

[Original Post]

 

how far away to slow down to get to 75 kts.?

 

Appreciate any input.

 

Andy

 

How far away to slow down is still a good question.  Your 'standard' approach as well as your slower speed handle it but the question remains for those of us that do other approaches.

 

Another issue is how precisely your reflex flap setting is, if it is even less than neg-six slowing down gets harder.

 

The best question is 'how far away to slow down to 100kts IAS? (zero degree flap speed) because that is the only speed that can be hard to make if you don't plan ahead.  80kts from zero flaps is easy with a throttle reduction; 62kts from 80 kts takes 2 1/2 seconds if you close the throttle.

[gbigs]

As I did in my first post to the thread.

 

Since the original post was made by a guy that has flown both a Cirrus and now a CT and seemed to be worried about losing altitude and speed getting into a pattern I thought it most important to note how much easier and less complicated it is to do that in an LSA like a CT versus the Cirrus.

 

Those of us that are flying or have flown the Cirrus know the feat is far more complicated especially if coming in from a cross-country at high altitudes and speed.  The CT or other LSA don't need to worry as much about shock cooling, mixture control, power settings and flaps at higher speeds etc. 

 

In the LSA a simple reduction in throttle gets you down.  The rest is timing entry into the pattern no matter which direction you take over mid field and teardrop back, drop into the downwind or enter downwind on 45.  After that it's simply a matter of keeping in enough power to maintain pattern altitude and then reducing power to descend to the runway.  The actual pattern speed is irrelevant IMHO.  The only speed that matters is approach and over the numbers.

[Ed Cesnalis]

 The only speed that matters is approach and over the numbers.

 

Important speeds to me:

• Pattern speed slow enough for other traffic - zero flaps 
• Descending and turning in pattern with 30% margin over stall min - 1.3 Vso
• Over the numbers - I can touch down on the numbers so min speed is adequate margin over stall given height over the numbers.
• Touch down - usually 39kts as high as 70kts in strong shear.

[Roger Lee]

The world is going to hell in a handbasket.

 

Ed,

You just burst my bubble. You admitted to landing above stall up to 70 knots and not at full 40 flaps. 

 

The world is doomed. I'm so sad.

 

 

       

[FastEddieB]

Tough crowd!

 

My input was solely meant to suggest a procedure that makes slowing down early unnecessary. It has worked exceedingly well for me flying a wide variety of aircraft to a wide variety of non-towered fields. I have no reason to doubt it would work in a CT. It also worked in my Cirrus, though I would start slowing down a bit a few miles out.

 

And about now is when CharlieTango points out there are airports where overflying may not work. Stipulated.

 

But more than one way to skin a cat.

 

Carry on!

[CT4ME]

Right up to reaching the airport, and even on downwind, I'm often at 110+kts.  My home airport is the 1st or 2nd busiest GA airport.  Sometimes, to fit into the traffic, or help the tower out, I'll speed-up or slow-down as needed.  The CT will slow down easily enough once you remove power.  As you've found out, having idle set too high can make losing speed a bit harder.

[andyb]

Hi Andy,

 

I think I sent you our SOP at one time but in general we teach a cruise power descent to within a couple miles of the airport.  Upon arrival at pattern altitude on a couple mile 45 deg entry to the downwind leg reduce power to 4500rpm.  Think "On the 45, reduce to 45"  this will put you below 100KIAS to set flaps to 0 deg.  As the CT slows while you maintain altitude you will arrive in the downwind around 80KIAS with little to no power change required, from there you are at the next flap speed if desired.

Eric,

 

I did receive your SOP manual and found it to be very helpful...a great resource.  Sure enough, you did reference how far from airport to reduce power and what the power should be!  Somehow I missed it on my multiple read-throughs.

 

I'll give it a try next flight.  This, and the other input, was very helpful.

 

Andy

[John Vance]

Hi Andy,

 

I think I sent you our SOP at one time but in general we teach a cruise power descent to within a couple miles of the airport.  Upon arrival at pattern altitude on a couple mile 45 deg entry to the downwind leg reduce power to 4500rpm.  Think "On the 45, reduce to 45"  this will put you below 100KIAS to set flaps to 0 deg.  As the CT slows while you maintain altitude you will arrive in the downwind around 80KIAS with little to no power change required, from there you are at the next flap speed if desired.

Eric - I'd be very interested in seeing your SOP.  Energy management in the pattern is something I'm still fiddling with.  Would it be possible to get a copy?

 

Thank

John

[Doug G.]

Yes, include me also. Thanks.

[ralarcon]

The good thing with the CTLS (my airplane) is that it is so maneuverable, that I really don't sweat approach and final much. Routinely, (99%) of the time, I start configuring for landing 3 miles from the field, and descending to pattern altitude. Pretty much I keep the same Flap setting all the way to landing. I use 15, 0, 0r -6 , depending on the crosswind. My home base is at a class D airport that is fairly active, with traffic and events. Winds permitting, I like to approach non towered airports at a fairly low speed , so I use flaps 15 at 70 to 75 knots. Some times this is not possible due to the winds. With my home base you may be asked to do different maneuvers, approaches , circles on downwind etc. I never sweat it because the CTLS is so maneuverable, that you can come in fast or slow and it is not difficult. Today , at our airport, we had an RC Jet practice , many , aircraft hovering near runway 5. They are fast and fly pretty high. So on approach I was asked to do a right downwind 2.5 miles to the south of runway 9 at minimum 1500 feet. I was approaching from the SE at 2000 AGL so I kept that altitude. At the same time there was a Cessna 182 on a L downwind. He extended my downwind a bit and the Cessna was asked to turn base before me, and then I was asked to turn base at 2000 feet. I had slowed down myself to around 90 knots and and 0 flaps. at 3 miles. So the winds were 140 deg. at 4 knots , I thought I'd practice flap 15, since I mostly use 0 due to the winds at this time of the year, in Central Fla. When I turned final, had traffic in sight, ahead of me,I was #2 and did not  have to slip the aircraft , it came down nicely. Other times I'm on a left downwind for 9, and the tower changes instructions to land on five and stop short of 9-27. (KLAL) So I slip it from pattern altitude, switch to flap 15, and land slow, wind permitting. That is what I love about flying this aircraft, it feels like you are driving a sports car.

 

Cheers

[FlyingMonkey]

Eric, thanks for the info. I don't think my CT will slow to 80kt at 4500rpm and 0 flaps, but I will test and see.

[coppercity]

You won't be at 80kias at 4500 rpm 0 flaps. If you enter a 2 mile 45 entry to the downwind at level pattern altitide at 4500 and -6 flaps from cruise you will get below 100kias and can then go to 0 flaps. If you hold altitude, speed and rpm should bleed to put you around 3800rpm and near 80kias as you turn downwind with little power change required. It may vary a couple hundred rpm based on altitude and prop pitch but the main point is to find some power settings that help make your approach easy and consistent.

[FlyingMonkey]

You won't be at 80kias at 4500 rpm 0 flaps. If you enter a 2 mile 45 entry to the downwind at level pattern altitide at 4500 and -6 flaps from cruise you will get below 100kias and can then go to 0 flaps. If you hold altitude, speed and rpm should bleed to put you around 3800rpm and near 80kias as you turn downwind with little power change required. It may vary a couple hundred rpm based on altitude and prop pitch but the main point is to find some power settings that help make your approach easy and consistent.

 

Ah, I see.  so the 3800 RPM I'm holding on downwind matches your experience, you were giving me a reference RPM to set when approaching the pattern at -6 that will let the speed bleed down and the pilot doesn't have to jockey the throttle.  Thanks, I will try this technique!