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Right downwind 27, 14,000'


Ed Cesnalis

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Which is why I was not talking about the AIM.  I was talking about the FARs, which *do* apply to non-towered airports and *are* regulatory.

 

I took out the AIM talk, I think that horse is beaten, agreed.  But note the FAR rule doesn't require pattern entry...a straight in approach has no turns.

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So, back to the question. When is a plane on "final?" The term as defined says it follows the base leg. Can you be on final 50 miles out? 10? 5?

The term is used, but it is wrong to use it that way. Final implies descent to the runway at or below pattern altitude and within the pattern.

I am advocating using the term "straight in" instead of final to indicate a long approach.

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So, back to the question. When is a plane on "final?" The term as defined says it follows the base leg. Can you be on final 50 miles out? 10? 5?

The term is used, but it is wrong to use it that way. Final implies descent to the runway at or below pattern altitude and within the pattern.

I am advocating using the term "straight in" instead of final to indicate a long approach.

 

No.

 

"A final approach is simply the last leg in an aircraft's approach to landing, when the aircraft is lined up with the runway and descending for landing."

 

There is no distance metric.  You may want to review the thread..  instrument approaches for example have no base leg.

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While there are no definitions of pattern size a bit of common sense needs to be used. Unless you are on a instrument approach the final segment should be no farther out than you would normally turn final if flying a proper pattern. The other point of being in the pattern is when you are at pattern altitude.

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While there are no definitions of pattern size a bit of common sense needs to be used. Unless you are on a instrument approach the final segment should be no farther out than you would normally turn final if flying a proper pattern. The other point of being in the pattern is when you are at pattern altitude.

Agreed, if I'm at 9500ft and 30 miles out, but happen to be aligned with the runway, I'm not on final no matter what radio call I make. I have heard people make "15 mile final" calls before though. Seriously.

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I'd have quipped back stating the only thing they are on final for is pissing everyone off; have some courtesy.

 

I almost did, but I was busy and decided to keep quiet. I will speak up when someone calls right traffic. I have also had a talk with the student after they landed suggesting that they are not getting their moneys worth with their high dollar flight training, and they need to discuss traffic patterns at class "G" airport with their instructor.

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I am not sure if instructors, in general, work with the students to practice the "mid field flyover" when approaching an airport from the wrong side for making the left downwind pattern?  I consider this a safe method to get into the left downwind approach if done at pattern altitude and if ample announcement of intentions is done.  It just boils down to being courteous and thoughtful and if in a hurry, take a deep breath and slow it down.

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I am not sure if instructors, in general, work with the students to practice the "mid field flyover" when approaching an airport from the wrong side for making the left downwind pattern?  I consider this a safe method to get into the left downwind approach if done at pattern altitude and if ample announcement of intentions is done.  It just boils down to being courteous and thoughtful and if in a hurry, take a deep breath and slow it down.

 

The midfield cross is not safe if you drop into the pattern after crossing.  The safe technique requires flying out then back on a tear-drop for a 45 mid-downwind entry.  If you get on the radio an admonish anyone for a long final you will do nothing but create animosity.

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The midfield cross is not safe if you drop into the pattern after crossing.  The safe technique requires flying out then back on a tear-drop for a 45 mid-downwind entry.  If you get on the radio an admonish anyone for a long final you will do nothing but create animosity.

 

I do a midfield cross if there is little traffic and I know exactly where everybody is.  It's safe, but you don't descend into the pattern, you are correct -- that is NOT safe.  The proper technique is to be at pattern altitude before you get to the airfield and cross over at that altitude.  That makes you the most visible to others in the pattern and makes them visible to you as well.

 

If traffic is heavy or I'm not sure where everybody is, I'll do the teardrop entry as you describe.  But even that is not entirely safe; when you are making the right hand descending turn to the 45, there is a period of time when you will be head-on into traffic that might be on a wide downwind.  I usually go at least 2-2.5 miles out before beginning my turn for that reason, but it's still a risk if there is a King Air or Pilatus flying a bomber pattern.  

 

The truth is there is no perfectly safe way to get onto downwind from the opposite side.  If I'm not in a hurry and things are busy, I will even sometimes fly all the way around the airport at least 5 miles away to the 45 and then get on it.  It takes a bit of time, but it's probably the safest way, and again, if not in a hurry, why not?  It's only more time in the logbook!   

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The midfield cross is not safe if you drop into the pattern after crossing.  The safe technique requires flying out then back on a tear-drop for a 45 mid-downwind entry.  If you get on the radio an admonish anyone for a long final you will do nothing but create animosity.

My experience in Central Florida, at non towered airports, is that people will do anything they want to do, to land. Including not announcing on the radio. My only recourse, for safety sake, is to approach the airport as slow as possible , reconnoitering and announcing from 10 miles out, and being ready to evade traffic and announcing the direction and altitude of my evasive maneuver. Having said that the preponderance of traffic sticks to the rules.

 

Cheers

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Instead of doing a mid-field cross over when approaching from the "wrong" side of the runway, I will often do an entry into the upwind leg at pattern altitude, then crosswind, then downwind. This is especially useful at short fields and also eliminates the "blind" turn to a 45 and we can all see everyone.

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I do a midfield cross if there is little traffic and I know exactly where everybody is.  It's safe, but you don't descend into the pattern, you are correct -- that is NOT safe.  The proper technique is to be at pattern altitude before you get to the airfield and cross over at that altitude.  That makes you the most visible to others in the pattern and makes them visible to you as well.

 

If traffic is heavy or I'm not sure where everybody is, I'll do the teardrop entry as you describe.  But even that is not entirely safe; when you are making the right hand descending turn to the 45, there is a period of time when you will be head-on into traffic that might be on a wide downwind.  I usually go at least 2-2.5 miles out before beginning my turn for that reason, but it's still a risk if there is a King Air or Pilatus flying a bomber pattern.  

 

The truth is there is no perfectly safe way to get onto downwind from the opposite side.  If I'm not in a hurry and things are busy, I will even sometimes fly all the way around the airport at least 5 miles away to the 45 and then get on it.  It takes a bit of time, but it's probably the safest way, and again, if not in a hurry, why not?  It's only more time in the logbook!   

 

Andy.

 

I agree with part of what you said...but crossing midfield is supposed to be done 500 feet above pattern altitude.  This is why the teardrop is required for such  a maneuver.   And of course, flying is dangerous...it's why most of our attention is focused on what can go wrong.

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Andy.

 

I agree with part of what you said...but crossing midfield is supposed to be done 500 feet above pattern altitude.  This is why the teardrop is required for such  a maneuver.   And of course, flying is dangerous...it's why most of our attention is focused on what can go wrong.

 

Not if you are joining directly onto the downwind.  If you approach 500' over now you are in a steep descent to the downwind and can't see what's under you.  Especially in a low wing! 

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Not if you are joining directly onto the downwind.  If you approach 500' over now you are in a steep descent to the downwind and can't see what's under you.  Especially in a low wing! 

 

Andy, that is the point.....No one should cross midfield at pattern altitude.  That is dangerous also.  The maneuver calls for 500 feet over pattern....Then once crossed it is dangerous to descend into the pattern and the downwind, even if you think you are alone.  The safer practice to to extend out and do a standard descending rate turn into a 45 back entry into the downwind.  This affords the best view of any possible traffic in all phases of attempting to join the pattern from a midfield opposite course.

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The examiner I use for check rides says the are only 2 ways out of the pattern and one way into the pattern, and it is published in the AIM. The way Burgers explains is exactly what he wants to see, and that is the way I teach it. For our airport I teach an standard arrival from the practice area to enter the 45° for the downwind for each of our 4 runways. If we are above pattern altitude I will cross over the top, descend after I am past the pattern, and then enter the downwind on a 45°.

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I'm with burgers and Tom - it's how I taught it and how I've flown it at least 95% of the time to non-towered fields.

 

Works well enough that I literally cannot remember the last time I had any sort of conflict, or even aggravation, in the traffic pattern.

 

Again, for those concerned about the descending turns clear of the pattern that leave you blind, think about what clearing turns are. Think of it as a descending clearing turn to enter the pattern.

 

It's so easy to just do it the recommended way, but as long as it's not regulatory - except for the direction of the turns in the pattern - just be sure to keep your head on a swivel and look for those who just need to roll their own, so to speak!

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...imagine a bunch of truck divers sitting on a web site thrashing over every tiny detail of the road, the trucks, the laws, the differences between trucks and bigots for a Mac, Mercedes or a Freuhauf, maintenance and oil changes,  the silly pecking order nonsense regarding hours driven and hours in the industry.  

 

Isn't this exactly what you just spent half this thread doing...??

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Guys, for clarification, I do usually do the overhead teardrop entry, and think that or flying around the airport to be best. But, I have done a midfield crossover entry at times of little or no traffic, and don't consider it unsafe if proper care is taken.

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