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Hypothetical question


frfly172

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How many light sport aircraft are actually flying light IFR ,to break a layer. Rumor has it ,more common than we think.

 

No one is supposed to go over 10k feet agl or be anywhere near IMC in an SLSA when flying as a Sport Pilot.  Also, inadvertent flying into IMC by a non instrument rated pilot, especially in an aircraft not equipped to do it is the most dangerous situation in aviation.  Let alone do it on purpose.

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Hmm, I don't think I'm qualified to say how often it happens. So far it hasn't happened to me. However, in Seattle where I did my training, it was a rare day that didn't require a lot of cloud dodging. And of course scud running is the national pastime there. It's easy to get caught on top or between layers, then you have to ask yourself "Do I feel lucky?".

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Hmm, I don't think I'm qualified to say how often it happens. So far it hasn't happened to me. However, in Seattle where I did my training, it was a rare day that didn't require a lot of cloud dodging. And of course scud running is the national pastime there. It's easy to get caught on top or between layers, then you have to ask yourself "Do I feel lucky?".

 

It mainly matters after the crash.  Then the NTSB will determine what happened and the insurance will refuse to pay for the plane or the survivors families.  Also, if you get caught by ATC flying in IMC without an instrument flight plan you can get nailed.

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Let me just say I'm instrument rated (though not current), was a CFII and have a whole bunch of time in simulated and actual IMC and in simulators.

 

Yet I would do everything humanly possible NOT to ever end up in a situation where in my Sky Arrow I actually had to use those skills.

 

In 9 years and about 440 hours I've avoided it to date*. With proper planning it should never happen.

 

How many cowboy scofflaws are out there punching through cloud layers? I have no idea, but I think they're playing with fire.

 

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Speaking strictly about airplanes. There are some SLSA that can be flown in IMC, and some that can not. Any SLSA built prior to April 2010 could, if approved by the manufacturer, allowed by the operating limitations, and has the required instrumentation and test, can fly in IMC. Any SLSA built after that time can not fly in IMC.

I do know of at least one Flight Design that was used as an instrument trainer, and regularly flown in IMC. 

 

I think anybody who is going to fly in IMC knows what pilot qualifications are required to do so.

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This question certainly piques my curiosity.   Fear of reprisal aside, If I had instrument skills  why would I be reluctant to use them if I stumbled into IMC?  I wouldn't have much of an alternative, would I?   Seems like good life insurance.   Is the "do I feel lucky" statement because of the risk of collision?  As a no-radio stick and rudder pilot I don't even know what I don't know.

 

  Or is Tom's question simply, "How many people fly into IMC without clearance in the spirit of the wild west?"   

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This question certainly piques my curiosity.   Fear of reprisal aside, If I had instrument skills  why would I be reluctant to use them if I stumbled into IMC?  I wouldn't have much of an alternative, would I?   Seems like good life insurance.   Is the "do I feel lucky" statement because of the risk of collision?  As a no-radio stick and rudder pilot I don't even know what I don't know.

 

  Or is Tom's question simply, "How many people fly into IMC without clearance in the spirit of the wild west?"   

 

If you are instrument rated you can fly into IMC all you want....the thread is about VFR pilots in a non-IFR equipped plane doing it. 

 

You don't need clearance to fly into IMC....but doing so is dumb if you are not being followed  by ATC.  And once in IMC ATC wants an IFR plan (you may be asked to file a  pop-up IFR flight plan).   Still, as long as you have the rating and the properly equipped plane you can legally fly into IMC.

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So to continue this thread,what is the average time ,your grounded ,due to weather ,on long cross countries?

 

Every flight is different.  Last year we flew from Winder GA to Page AZ, 1400nm.  The two day trip out we had zero delays, no problems whatsoever.  On the way back, we got caught behind weather system after weather system, culminating with us stuck on the gulf coast of TX under Hurricane Patricia.  Our two day trip back turned into a week-long ordeal involving five full days of weather delays.

 

If you are using VFR flying as a way to travel on a fixed and inflexible schedule, then you are bound to be disappointed at some point.  

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If you are using VFR flying as a way to travel on a fixed and inflexible schedule, then you are bound to be disappointed at some point.  

I hate to burst some bubbles out there but there are a lot of weather patterns that ground IFR rated pilots of light aircraft.  Icing and cumulogranite being two of the big ones  :)   I believe an instrument ticket (and plane) would not have benefited Andy significantly on his return trip.  IFR does give you more options but commercial is the way to go if you absolutely need to get somewhere at a certain time.

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I was used to two different, approved attitude indicators in both my Tiger and my Cirrus. I've had one very disorienting instrument issue, and its a big plus to have an extra attitude indicator to help resolve the conflict.

 

I say this because, in my Sky Arrow, I have only a single attitude indicator, the Dynon D10A. I would hate for that to be my only lifeline in solid IMC.

 

Plus, I don't think there's a legal way for me to navigate IFR, since my only nav radio is a handheld 496.

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I hate to burst some bubbles out there but there are a lot of weather patterns that ground IFR rated pilots of light aircraft.  Icing and cumulogranite being two of the big ones  :)   I believe an instrument ticket (and plane) would not have benefited Andy significantly on his return trip.  IFR does give you more options but commercial is the way to go if you absolutely need to get somewhere at a certain time.

 

I think you're probably right about our trip.  There was a point where there was a line of weather an IFR pilot might have punched through, but after that it was a definite no-go.  

 

I agree with you, an instrument ticket doesn't make you immune to weather, but it does buy you some more options when it gets dicey.  

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Plus, I don't think there's a legal way for me to navigate IFR, since my only nav radio is a handheld 496

This is a very interesting topic.  FAR 91.205 states: (2) Two-way radio communication and navigation equipment suitable for the route to be flown.

 

A GPS would need to be proven to meet the appropriate TSO standard which pretty much means it needs to be 'certified', unless you can provide data that proves compliance which isn't really practical.  Now then, what navigation equipment is suitable if you are only doing a pop-up clearance for VFR-on-top?  If you have VFR flight following to begin with you'd probably just be given a course and instructions to report when your on top.  Then you revert back to keeping VFR.  You really don't require anything but a heading indicator for navigation.  You would still need the other appropriate backups listed in 91.205.

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What weather to risk depends on the experience and skill of the pilot and the aircraft.  The most dangerous weather are thunderstorms.  If you have FIKI you can fly in many icing situations.  And if you can fly higher, say around 25k feet you can avoid a lot of weather anyway.

 

For example when we picked up our Cirrus SR22T equipped with FIKI and NEXRAD weather at Diluth, MN in early March we hit IMC and snow and ice all the way across Nevada.  We filed a pop-up IFR plan at ATC request and completed the flight landing on a GPS approach at Minden, NV.   The wings were whisking ice and snow the entire time but the FIKI system kept up with it.  The wind shear we hit was also not fun near Reno, but we maintained altitude and were vectored around the cells by ATC (though we could also see them on NEXTRAD on the G1000).

 

Weather is a thing to be respected but it does mostly depend on skill and the plane to decide what weather can be dealt with safely.

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I fly a liberty ,which is certified for IFR,and I respect the weather,however,it's good to have the ability to fly light IFR,as I get older I'm in no hurry and staying on the ground an extra day or two is no big deal.

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I fly a liberty ,which is certified for IFR,and I respect the weather,however,it's good to have the ability to fly light IFR,as I get older I'm in no hurry and staying on the ground an extra day or two is no big deal.

Well said.

 

My particular case is I live in the foothills of the Appalachians, which often have their own weather.

 

Satellites photos were a game changer. There can be a thin fog/overcast layer right over my airport, with CAVU just a few miles away in my direction of flight. That's about all I would be willing to undertake in my plane as equipped.

 

And, of course, I would need some refresher training and an ICC. Not sure it's worth the trouble, but worth considering, especially if the PBOR2 gives me access to more capable planes.

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Well said.

 

My particular case is I live in the foothills of the Appalachians, which often have their own weather.

 

Satellites photos were a game changer. There can be a thin fog/overcast layer right over my airport, with CAVU just a few miles away in my direction of flight. That's about all I would be willing to undertake in my plane as equipped.

 

And, of course, I would need some refresher training and an ICC. Not sure it's worth the trouble, but worth considering, especially if the PBOR2 gives me access to more capable planes.

 

Eddie, when you get back to certified aircraft try to get into a newer SR22T so you can see the differences.  I noticed you giving advise on PilotsOfAmerica on landing the SR22.  My experience so far with the heavier turbo version is the plane does NOT like to land near stall speed (I have 60 hours in it so far now).   I have not flown the other models so I can't comment on the SR22 vanilla.  But watching the comments on the SR22 I can say that they are not the same plane at all....which would be over the heads of the PilotsOfAmerica guys since they lack the basics on Cirrus technology and aircraft anyway.

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