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Avoid nosing over - here's the drill


Ed Cesnalis

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Pick a mark on  your home runway far enough down the runway where your nose wheel is already on the runway.  Until you master it keep your nose wheel elevated beyond the mark for practice.  Use the throttle and stab.

 

In real life the mark becomes a hole that the nose wheel must not dig into and flip you over.

 

Advance skills -  learn to manage your energy to where you can keep your nose wheel elevated longer even with a closed throttle.  

 

CT pilots tend to land so flat that they have a nose-wheel issue when landing on a rough surface.

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The landing thought is to say to yourself "keep the nose up until the mains touch."   Usually the end of the runway disappears if your sight picture is right in the CT and the nose seems to point straight up, but really isn't and is fine.

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Pick a mark on  your home runway far enough down the runway where your nose wheel is already on the runway.  Until you master it keep your nose wheel elevated beyond the mark for practice.  Use the throttle and stab.

 

In real life the mark becomes a hole that the nose wheel must not dig into and flip you over.

 

Advance skills -  learn to manage your energy to where you can keep your nose wheel elevated longer even with a closed throttle.  

 

CT pilots tend to land so flat that they have a nose-wheel issue when landing on a rough surface.

Yes , I practice the above, frequently.

 

Cheers

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Is that a fact or are you just talking from experience?

I think he is right, and furthermore, I tend to land flat myself. Look at You Tube recordings of CTLS landings. I have not seen a nose wheel up landing in any of them. Everybody lands rather flat. I know , for me , it takes frequent conscious  practice.

 

Cheers

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Its tough to keep the nose wheel up during the landing for any time. It shouldn't hit first by any means and is usually just behind the mains touching. This isn't necessarily the pilot, but more an aircraft design for us. Keeping the nose too high in a zero flap landing will get you a tail strike. There is nothing anywhere that says the nose wheel must stay off the ground for so long and is different for many aircraft. Some you can almost taxi around with the nose off the ground and some are more nose heavy. Having the nose on the ground sooner than later also gives better directional control at slow speeds especially in winds.

The plane doesn't land much nose up in any flap setting.

 

So this comes down to how each plane is designed.

 

Yes the pilot has some part in this, but the plane may relegate how much.

 

 

 

"CT pilots tend to land so flat that they have a nose-wheel issue when landing on a rough surface."

 

This is caused more by poor soft field landing technique and it is also relegated by our aircraft design. Each different plane may be different in it's landing performance and handling on rough fields. Some aircraft should never land on a rough field where some could land on boulders.

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You can argue the aircraft design forces flat landings but I don't think its true.  Why would it be true?  What is the design feature that cause the plane to land flat?

At what point do you loose attitude control and relinquish it to the design resulting in these flat landings?

 

Here's the question:  'Is your stick full aft at touch down?'  

 

My stick  is full aft and I use 30* flaps.  My landings are on my mains with my nose wheel up and I can add a little power and keep it up if there are holes that I need to avoid or if I just want to practice it.

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You can argue the aircraft design forces flat landings but I don't think its true.

 

 

I agree.

 

I just went to YouTube and viewed several CTLS landings from the cockit. It appears one can land a CT with the stick nearly all the way back and the nose in the air, then to be let down softly.

 

One can always choose not to, but that's a choice of the pilot, not one imposed by aircraft design.

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Even if  you buy into the school of  thought that CTs are different and land flat because of 'design' isn't it a good  idea to realize that most CT crashes aren't crashes but nose overs. Occupants are well protected but the damage and humiliation are huge.

 

You can blame the design and I can blame the pilot but if all CT pilots had nose wheel control how much less damage and humiliation would we see?

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I agree.

 

I just went to YouTube and viewed several CTLS landings from the cockit. It appears one can land a CT with the stick nearly all the way back and the nose in the air, then to be let down softly.

 

One can always choose not to, but that's a choice of the pilot, not one imposed by aircraft design.

 

 

You know what  Eddie?  If you land my CT at 39kts IAS you will land nose high instead of flat.  It will want to settle even with the full aft stick in a few seconds and this is where a little bit of power can keep it up and allow you to get past the hole if you can see it.

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Roger has a point in that the nose wheel doesn't stay up for long in a 15 flap landing at 1.3 Vso. This may look flat on vids but really isn't all that flat in reality.

 

To me the biggest problem was making sure the nose wheel didn't touch at the same time as the mains AND the rudder pedals were neutral because the nose wheel is steered with them and if cockeyed on a three point can cause the plane to veer off the runway or side load the nose wheel a bit.

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Roger has a point in that the nose wheel doesn't stay up for long in a 15 flap landing at 1.3 Vso. This may look flat on vids but really isn't all that flat in reality.

 

 

 

You say that as though the plane is in control and not the pilot. 1.3Vso is for approach not landing.  If you just accept that the nose wheel doesn't stay up aren't you less prepared for dealing with a hole that may nose you over?  I don't accept that the nose wheel doesn't stay up long, the nose wheel comes down when I permit it, it does nothing on its own.

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I posted this not too long ago:

 

 

 

1) Admittedly not a CT.

 

2) With no rear seat passenger, my CG is kinda far forward, though within limits.

 

3) A T-tail is less effective on landing, being farther away from ground effect.

 

4) #3 may be mitigated by what appears to be a longer "arm" for the elevator than in a CT.

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I do a lot of landings at both 15° and 30° flap settings.  I try to hold off the nose wheel to the best of my ability.  What I find is that once the mains hit, there is a pitching moment from the drag of the wheels rotating that wants to pull the nose wheel down.  You actually have to add some back stick force at that point, or the nose wheel will lower itself.  Usually that's fine, but if you want the softest, smoothest landing you need to anticipate that moment and add additional back stick for it.  

 

Of course, if you have done everything perfectly, there is no more stick left, because it was full aft when the mains touched down.  In that case just holding it full back will keep the nose up until you get too slow.  In my CT I seem to always have a little bit of stick left at touchdown.

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In my CT I seem to always have a little bit of stick left at touchdown.

 

And you blame a 'pitching moment'?

 

Visualize the two of us landing side by side and a 100' wide runway both touching down at the same time and distance down the runway.   Since we are visualizing the camera would be on the parallel taxi way.

 

At that touchdown point my stick would be full aft and yours not so much.  My pitch attitude would be a normal nose high landing attitude yours not so much.

 

As we touchdown side by side you would appear different, your stab would be cleaner, your pitch attitude flatter and you would possess more kinetic energy as a result.  As you quickly pulled ahead the camera would then see me with my high nose and stab and I would clearly look 'done flying'.

 

One thing leads to another, most CT pilots 'fly it on', most CT pilots 'land flat', most CT pilots have never felt the aft stop on their sticks.  Pulling back slows you in the air and on the ground to the extent that you can't land at the lowest possible speed without it.

 

Two things are going to minimize the chances of your next nose-over.

  1. Making your normal landing a minimum speed landing - so your emergency landing could easily be a minimum speed landing as well
  2. Good nose wheel control because the chance of planting it into a hole and changing the landing into a crash are far higher than any other crash scenario.
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Its tough to keep the nose wheel up during the landing for any time. It shouldn't hit first by any means and is usually just behind the mains touching. This isn't necessarily the pilot, but more an aircraft design for us. Keeping the nose too high in a zero flap landing will get you a tail strike. There is nothing anywhere that says the nose wheel must stay off the ground for so long and is different for many aircraft. Some you can almost taxi around with the nose off the ground and some are more nose heavy. Having the nose on the ground sooner than later also gives better directional control at slow speeds especially in winds.

The plane doesn't land much nose up in any flap setting.

 

So this comes down to how each plane is designed.

 

Yes the pilot has some part in this, but the plane may relegate how much.

 

 

 

"CT pilots tend to land so flat that they have a nose-wheel issue when landing on a rough surface."

 

This is caused more by poor soft field landing technique and it is also relegated by our aircraft design. Each different plane may be different in it's landing performance and handling on rough fields. Some aircraft should never land on a rough field where some could land on boulders.

I did my "check ride" with Chuck Brown, Jack Brown's brother (Sea Plane base at KGIF) . Very experienced pilot, current commercial jet pilot.

After we got through, he mentioned to me, "This model aircraft lands flat, like Boeing jet aircraft".

 

Cheers

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I did my "check ride" with Chuck Brown, Jack Brown's brother (Sea Plane base at KGIF) . Very experienced pilot, current commercial jet pilot.

After we got through, he mentioned to me, "This model aircraft lands flat, like Boeing jet aircraft".

 

Cheers

 

It will land flat IF you let it. A little excess speed and a less aggressive flare with, lets say, 30 degree flaps will likely find you a couple of feet above the runway in a flat attitude. Even then, with experience, you can anticipate the "drop" and rapidly apply aft stick to touch down nose up.

 

To avoid this, get slowed to the proper speed on final then flare more aggressively to arrive at the touchdown in a nose high attitude. This takes a little more experience with the aircraft and maybe a little power to correct mistakes.

 

Your guy may be the best in the world. I don't know him. But, experience as a flight instructor has taught me that being a "jet pilot" tells me nothing except to keep my guard up. No offense meant.

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And you blame a 'pitching moment'?

 

Visualize the two of us landing side by side and a 100' wide runway both touching down at the same time and distance down the runway.   Since we are visualizing the camera would be on the parallel taxi way.

 

At that touchdown point my stick would be full aft and yours not so much.  My pitch attitude would be a normal nose high landing attitude yours not so much.

 

As we touchdown side by side you would appear different, your stab would be cleaner, your pitch attitude flatter and you would possess more kinetic energy as a result.  As you quickly pulled ahead the camera would then see me with my high nose and stab and I would clearly look 'done flying'.

 

One thing leads to another, most CT pilots 'fly it on', most CT pilots 'land flat', most CT pilots have never felt the aft stop on their sticks.  Pulling back slows you in the air and on the ground to the extent that you can't land at the lowest possible speed without it.

 

Two things are going to minimize the chances of your next nose-over.

  1. Making your normal landing a minimum speed landing - so your emergency landing could easily be a minimum speed landing as well
  2. Good nose wheel control because the chance of planting it into a hole and changing the landing into a crash are far higher than any other crash scenario.

 

 

I wasn't "blaming" anything, I was giving my experiences with the airplane, and noting the best landings are done with full aft stick.  

 

I'm talking about a half-inch of remaining stick here, not much at all.  I'm not making excuses for my landings, I'm very happy with them.  With a short final speed at 30° flaps of 48kt, I'm pretty sure I'm not leaving a lot of excess energy on the table, but I'm sure you could do it better.

 

<_<

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Hi Ed,

 

If you land at full stall like you say then you aren't holding the nose off the runway because the plane has quit flying and the nose is on the ground.

I can keep the nose off the runway at higher speeds, but not below what the plane wants to fly at. Like below stall. Something has to generate enough lift to bring a weighted front end off the deck.

 

Good nose wheel control does not have a speed attached to it.

 

The pitch forward as soon as the mains touch bring the front tire down is real and does it to everyone.

 

Different planes can land more up than others, but the CT has never been one of them. I have never in all my years seen a single CT pilot hold the nose wheel off the ground on landing, ever and I have seen thousands of CT landings.

It is only for a moment in time. There is no extended wheel off the ground roll.

 

Some designs just land flatter than others. It's just their design.

 

 

You say that as though the plane is in control and not the pilot.

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Hi Ed,

 

If you land at full stall like you say then you aren't holding the nose off the runway because the plane has quit flying and the nose is on the ground.

I can keep the nose off the runway at higher speeds, but not below what the plane wants to fly at. Like below stall. Something has to generate enough lift to bring a weighted front end off the deck.

 

Good nose wheel control does not have a speed attached to it.

 

The pitch forward as soon as the mains touch bring the front tire down is real and does it to everyone.

 

Different planes can land more up than others, but the CT has never been one of them. I have never in all my years seen a single CT pilot hold the nose wheel off the ground on landing, ever and I have seen thousands of CT landings.

It is only for a moment in time. There is no extended wheel off the ground roll.

 

Some designs just land flatter than others. It's just their design.

 

 

You say that as though the plane is in control and not the pilot.

 

 

Are you saying I need to get a camera man?

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It will land flat IF you let it. A little excess speed and a less aggressive flare with, lets say, 30 degree flaps will likely find you a couple of feet above the runway in a flat attitude. Even then, with experience, you can anticipate the "drop" and rapidly apply aft stick to touch down nose up.

 

To avoid this, get slowed to the proper speed on final then flare more aggressively to arrive at the touchdown in a nose high attitude. This takes a little more experience with the aircraft and maybe a little power to correct mistakes.

 

Your guy may be the best in the world. I don't know him. But, experience as a flight instructor has taught me that being a "jet pilot" tells me nothing except to keep my guard up. No offense meant.

 

John,

 

You are exactly right.

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