Avoid nosing over - here's the drill

[Roger Lee]

Hi Ed,

 

You did say that in post 29. 

"What makes the CT different is the nose wheel will settle in a fraction of a second if you don't hold it off."

 

The problem is unless you are carrying extra speed or add throttle the nose comes down immediately after the mains touch and you can't hold it off at a full stall landing. You have no lift.

 

Aren't you the one that has always debated with me not to land with throttle? Always at idle lots of flaps and full stall.  Old post are coming back to haunt you.

 

And:

 

Ed said:

"I think it's because the average CT pilot lets the plane land itself and doesn't want to mess that up with landing it in a slower safer manner."

 

Why do you think slower is ALWAYS safer?

 

What I see a lot of pilots debating Chevy and Ford's. There is more than one way, it's pilot choice and has been that way forever. AND IT"S ALL OKAY.

 

And:

 

There is no one way for all landings and it's up to each pilot to learn and train for the differences.

 

Even though in the past I have chose to stay out of some of these Chevy and Ford debates I got into a few the last few weeks. Maybe I need more to do to keep me busy.   

 

I just bought a new GMC Denali 1 ton so I like to debate GMC's and Ford's now.  

And I have to keep posting so Andy doesn't catch me.  

[Ed Cesnalis]

Roger,

 

Do you have another method that will prepare the average CT pilot to avoid nosing over?  Imagine the amount of damage to the fleet that that would be avoided if we as a group weren't so prone to nose over?

[Roger Lee]

Hi Ed,

 

I'm all for training and do more weird off the normal chart landings than most. You can do all this, but some of this isn't easy, possible or achievable in some aircraft like our CT. I do lots of weird stuff because I never want anything thrown at me I won't recognise or be ready and calm in its application.

Teach them the normal book stuff, but there is more and many variants. Just the book stuff can get you into a tunnel vision approach in an emergency because emergencies aren't normal or in a controlled situation.

I'm 100% with you on practicing soft field landings, full stall and the like, but limiting a pilot to 2-3 types of landings may condemn him in the emergency or realistic practice. The pilot needs to know his aircraft's capabilities and the CT is a poor one to try and hold the nose wheel off the runway for anytime during a normal landing. Other planes do this very well, but the CT isn't a good one.

 

 

One thing I do know from experience is what it's like to land on beach sand without really large tires. If you fail to have the seatbelt on your headed out the front window. When I was 28 years old I tried this. About snapped me in half, but I made a beautiful soft field landing with a 10' roll.

[Roger Lee]

p.s.

 

Ed and all,

 

Just so you know Ed and everyone else I never get angry here or post with a malice intent. I'm not always sure how my black and white letters come out in the other persons mind, but  I NEVER EVER MEAN ANY MALICE!  

I do confess to baiting once in awhile.   

 

I just like to debate. It's all laid back to me and anyone that actually knows me knows that and if I have ever truly offended anyone here I'm sorry and it was never my intent. It was only meant to dig down to the facts or fun whichever it may have been. 

[Tom Baker]

I teach and try to make my landings in a CT like I would do a 3 point landing in a tailwheel airplane. Since the tricycle gear has the mains further back it is not quite the same, but very similar. If you touch down smoothly it is easy to keep the nose up, but touch dowm with any excess rate of descent and the nose wheel will drop.

[Ed Cesnalis]

Hi Ed,

 

I'm all for training and do more weird off the normal chart landings than most. You can do all this, but some of this isn't easy, possible or achievable in some aircraft like our CT. I do lots of weird stuff because I never want anything thrown at me I won't recognise or be ready and calm in its application.

Teach them the normal book stuff, but there is more and many variants. Just the book stuff can get you into a tunnel vision approach in an emergency because emergencies aren't normal or in a controlled situation.

I'm 100% with you on practicing soft field landings, full stall and the like, but limiting a pilot to 2-3 types of landings may condemn him in the emergency or realistic practice. The pilot needs to know his aircraft's capabilities and the CT is a poor one to try and hold the nose wheel off the runway for anytime during a normal landing. Other planes do this very well, but the CT isn't a good one.

 

 

One thing I do know from experience is what it's like to land on beach sand without really large tires. If you fail to have the seatbelt on your headed out the front window. When I was 28 years old I tried this. About snapped me in half, but I made a beautiful soft field landing with a 10' roll.

 

 

I never advocated that a pilot limit the kind of landings he can do.  I'm just pointing out that the average CT pilot lands fast and the fleet has a horrible record when it comes to nosing over.  Not only is it possible to control your nose wheel you should be comfortable with it.  

[Roger Lee]

Hi Tom,

 

The sightseeing must be done for the day and you're back at the hotel?  Good show so far? Good OAT?

[Ed Cesnalis]

I teach and try to make my landings in a CT like I would do a 3 point landing in a tailwheel airplane. Since the tricycle gear has the mains further back it is not quite the same, but very similar. If you touch down smoothly it is easy to keep the nose up, but touch dowm with any excess rate of descent and the nose wheel will drop.

 

And there you have it folks ^

[Roger Lee]

Hi Ed,

 

If you land at full stall and drop into a hole you are going over. Keeping the nose wheel off a second won't make much difference. It's where the W&B is. The nose collapses and drops into the ground and digs in. That left over energy has to go some place and it just pivots right over the heavy rounded end.

 

You can land just like Tom said and it's just one of many types of landings, but you're still going over.

 

Believe it or not that;'s a good thing. The CT safety carbon fiber roll cage around you will save your butty and most times than not will let you walk away or have minor injuries. Not dead.  The energy is spent in the roll not in a nose first stop into a pole.

 

 

See we agree again:

 

"And there you have it folks "

[Ed Cesnalis]

Nosing over is not a good thing, that's just stupid.

 

As your own video shows nosing over happens when the engine is running.  I just viewed one of my landings on video and with no throttle to extend it took 3 seconds for my nose to settle.  In a dead stick I can lengthen that, with power I can taxi like that until I find safe turf.

 

Even if your engine is out you can combine slipping with nose wheel control and aim for a place that won't flip you over. 

[Roger Lee]

"Nosing over is not a good thing, that's just stupid."

 

 

Somethings we just don't have as much control over as we would like.

In rough surface landings unless you are a helicopter most of the time you have little choice and the front gear is folding..

If you can't roll or 95% of the time take out your weakest link the nose wheel (more so on your plane before it was beefed up) then you're going to roll. Like you said most CT's that try and land on too rough a surface roll over. Now you know why. Once the nose wheel folds under your done.

Rolling over could save your life.  When I was a driving instructor we taught the fire and police better to dissipate the energy than come to a sudden stop. A roll over in our case could help save you and at that point I prefer my hide over the planes. The plane is going to have to get fixed anyway. 

 

"In a dead stick I can lengthen that, with power I can taxi like that until I find safe turf."

 

​If you don't have safe turf coming? Your saying you always find smooth enough ground.  Most of the time that doesn't happen and it only takes one little pucker bush. Look where most land. Rough ground for most tricycle gear spells folded front gear. If your wheels can roll on it it isn't rough.

[Ed Cesnalis]

I didn't say you can always find smooth enough ground.  I am saying when smooth enough ground is an option I want to have the skills and currency to use it and not flip over.

[FlyingMonkey]

 

And I have to keep posting so Andy doesn't catch me.  

 

Keep running Roger, you'll only go down tired.  

[Roger Lee]

Hi Ed,

 

I've lost an engine in a CT and so long as there is a road landing is a non event.

Anything else will be in bushes (yours will be a Mnt. slope) and then it isn't going to make any difference. We are both going to crash land and trash the plane. So long as I can walk away from a crash landing I'm good.

[FastEddieB]

 

If you can't roll or 95% of the time take out your weakest link the nose wheel (more so on your plane before it was beefed up) then you're going to roll. Like you said most CT's that try and land on too rough a surface roll over. Now you know why. Once the nose wheel folds under your done.

 

I just have to wonder how many of the flipped CT's had their sticks all the way back when they did flip.

 

It does seem the CT is a bit more prone to flipping over than other planes. I recall the one that landed on what I think looked like a well-groomed soccer field and flipped.

 

I think this may be the one:

 

 

This might be part of the reason why:

 

Wheelbase:

 

CTLS: 4'10"

Sky Arrow: 5'8" 

Piper Cherokee: 6'2"

Cessna 152: 7'7"

 

All the more reason to be sure to keep that stick back, especially on what might be a questionable surface.

[Ed Cesnalis]

Hi Ed,

 

I've lost an engine in a CT and so long as there is a road landing is a non event.

Anything else will be in bushes (yours will be a Mnt. slope) and then it isn't going to make any difference. We are both going to crash land and trash the plane. So long as I can walk away from a crash landing I'm good.

 

 

Roger,

 

You never know.  I have had a forced landing after have broken off a main gear and 1/2 of the strut on take off.  On this event I landed on a road and I had to hold up a wing until minimum speed.  The result was my tail feathers and wing tip were both 2" off the ground but no contact and not damage beyond the snapped strut.

 

I did have a 2nd forced landing and I did land on a steep slope.

 

I don't agree at all.  The fleet has a bad record with nose overs, the pilots have a consensus that you can't hold the nose off so enjoy your flip over and fat insurance check.  

 

Its not true, the number of nose overs can be reduced.  Example:  you are forced to land by low fuel or weather or health or ...  roads have wires so the option is the field.  You pick the field do a soft field landing and lower the nose at a point of your choosing where you can see it is free of  holes.  You could possibly survive a ditch if you hit it with both mains at the same time and did a few seconds of WOT when you get launched.

 

I think we should all have landing skills that include keeping the nose up as will as keeping one main up as land.  The CT is reluctant to do either without the right control input and throttle setting.

[ralarcon]

We all have our own habits and techniques.

 

If I'm at KLAL with 8,500' of runway, my touchdown is virtually identical to what I use on a short or soft field, the goal being to touch down with minimal energy, whether on smooth pavement or grass or dirt.

 

Just curious, why would you not land similarly on runways of any length? It's good practice, if nothing else.

I find it easier to get down flat on the ground , during the Spring, Winter,  and Fall when we have some seriously high cross winds.

 

Cheers

[Ed Cesnalis]

I find it easier to get down flat on the ground , during the Spring, Winter,  and Fall when we have some seriously high cross winds.

 

Cheers

 

The subject isn't what kind of landings do you like to routinely do because of high crosswinds, the subject is are you proficient at doing another type of landing that will give you a better chance of not flipping over?

 

I'll guess your not saying that you like flat landings and will be glad to flip over when the time comes.

[gbigs]

Nosing over is not a good thing, that's just stupid.

 

As your own video shows nosing over happens when the engine is running.  I just viewed one of my landings on video and with no throttle to extend it took 3 seconds for my nose to settle.  In a dead stick I can lengthen that, with power I can taxi like that until I find safe turf.

 

Even if your engine is out you can combine slipping with nose wheel control and aim for a place that won't flip you over. 

 

Where are the nosing over accidents?  The only ones I see in the CT are dropping out of the air... The guy that landed on the dirt strip hit a rock.

[Ed Cesnalis]

Where are the nosing over accidents?  The only ones I see in the CT are dropping out of the air... The guy that landed on the dirt strip hit a rock.

 

How do you know Roger hit a rock and not a hole?  What difference does it make, rock or hole?  An elevated nose wheel on an emergency landing can save you from either.  Roger did nose over.

 

I'll let you do your own research if you don't think CTs nose over a lot.

[Ed Cesnalis]

I just made a video and I'm glad I did.  I was able to hold the nosewheel up for over 1,500' no problem.  After seeing the video I see for the 1st time that I only hold it up about 1-3 inches which will save me from the hole but not so good for rocks.

 

I will begin holding my nose not only up but up 12".

 

Its still uploading to youtube.

[ralarcon]

The subject isn't what kind of landings do you like to routinely do because of high crosswinds, the subject is are you proficient at doing another type of landing that will give you a better chance of not flipping over?

 

I'll guess your not saying that you like flat landings and will be glad to flip over when the time comes.

Well, he asked why do you not land the same way always ?, my response attempted to answer why not.

 

Cheers

[Ed Cesnalis]

The point is to avoid flipping over by keeping the nose wheel up.  In the video mine is only up a couple of inches and the wing camera doesn't have the angle to see the space.  

 

Next time I'll keep it higher so the wing mount camera shows it more clearly.

 

[FastEddieB]

Well, he asked why do you not land the same way always ?, my response attempted to answer why not.

 

Cheers

To be more accurate, my question was: "Just curious, why would you not land similarly on runways of any length?"

 

I thought you implied that you landed differently just because a runway was long.

 

Crosswinds and gusts are excellent reasons to modify technique. Runway length not so much - IMHO, of course!

[ralarcon]

I'm suspecting , this is rather common among CT pilots.

 

 

Cheers