fredycompean Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 Hi everyone. Thanks in advance for your comment. Im considering a 2006 CTSW for purchase soon. But I seem to recall a rumor about them not performing so well at high elevation fields. My airfield is at 6,070ft elevation so my flights are hence between that and about 12,000 foot. Would a CTSW or a CTLS be a better option for this purpose. ? Thanks Fredy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 Fredy, I fly out of a higher field and clear higher mountains. The 2006 CTSW is not at any disadvantage in fact the opposite. My bird weights 719lbs empty. We were taking these photos 2 days ago and my passenger asked if we were really at 13,800' already, so easily. First image is of Minaret Lake, where Bob Fossetts remains and plane were found. Mtn flying can be dangerous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredycompean Posted November 9, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 Wow Charly Ttango. Thanks for the comment. How does it behave there during hot summer days at 8,500ft + DA take off? All the same? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 Even above 10,000' DA I get off the ground if 5 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 Either will perform just fine. I can take off with either if propped correctly (key component) well over weight at 10K DA without any issues. Yes climb is slow, but not an issue. So either will work. If you get the chance fly one of each and see how you like each. Their are some minor differences. Some like the SW and some the LS. I like the SW better, but things like this is strictly personal preference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbigs Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 The CT will fly well at high DA....but it has a limited useful load and needs to be not driven hard on hot days over 90f. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT4ME Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 Fredy, Check out some of these videos... https://www.youtube.com/user/ICEYtheCT/videos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted November 10, 2016 Report Share Posted November 10, 2016 The CT will fly well at high DA....but it has a limited useful load and needs to be not driven hard on hot days over 90f. That is your experience with the CTLSi. The useful load of the CTSW is not as limited as you imply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredycompean Posted November 10, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2016 what do you mean driven hard on hot days? here it gets to 90 in the spring and summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted November 10, 2016 Report Share Posted November 10, 2016 what do you mean driven hard on hot days? here it gets to 90 in the spring and summer. I had to ask myself the same question. I'm pretty sure it means to limit your climb rate. At cooler temps you can utilyze all available climb performance but at some temp like 90F your oil temp is likely to climb above 235*F. When faced with this I find the only relief is to climb to cooler temps so a steep climb on hot days might make sense after all. Rotax now has a higher capacity oil cooler made by Seatrab, if your environment is a bit too hot for the particular CT you bring into it an oil cooler upgrade is now a possibility. Many here will tell you there is no problem at all with cooling that some minor tweaks lime rerouting a hose can't fix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbigs Posted November 10, 2016 Report Share Posted November 10, 2016 That is your experience with the CTLSi. The useful load of the CTSW is not as limited as you imply. What is my implication? The point being any of the CTs can be overloaded with two males of 200lbs plus in the plane, full fuel and a modicum of luggage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted November 10, 2016 Report Share Posted November 10, 2016 I used to fly my CTSW at 1475 lbs.on occasions and never saw over 235F on a climb. I did all my temp lowering projects and never had any issues. I could climb out at 10K DA when needed. people under the 1320 lbs. shouldn't use that as a temp problem complaint. Even a float plane is setup at 1430 lbs. Things that help temps: proper prop pitch for YOUR mission, proper hose installs (tight bends removed or springs in the hoses added if necessary), proper coolant, better selection of takeoff setups (i.e. flatter climbs or less flaps), clean and better flowing air filters. Even the type of prop can at times make a difference. I went from a 66" Warp drive to a 68" Sensenich. Most of you use a 64" Neuform. I'm not sure how much this may help engine temps, but it couldn't hurt: header wrap. Leads to better under the cowl engine temps so there is less heat to get rid of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted November 11, 2016 Report Share Posted November 11, 2016 What is my implication? The point being any of the CTs can be overloaded with two males of 200lbs plus in the plane, full fuel and a modicum of luggage. Your implication was that all CT's have a limited useful load. I guess the term limited is subjective. I have flown several CTSW's, Several CTLS's, and a couple CTLSi. The CTLSi certainly has a limited useful load. The later CTLS with the 10" Skyviews is still somewhat limited. The early CTLS were not as bad. The CTSW certainly has the best useful load of all these. I would not consider any airplane that you can put 2 standard people plus full fuel and some baggage, and still be under gross weight to be limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhanson Posted November 11, 2016 Report Share Posted November 11, 2016 Hi everyone. Thanks in advance for your comment. Im considering a 2006 CTSW for purchase soon. But I seem to recall a rumor about them not performing so well at high elevation fields. My airfield is at 6,070ft elevation so my flights are hence between that and about 12,000 foot. Would a CTSW or a CTLS be a better option for this purpose. ? Thanks Fredy You must be at MMSP, 3000m , nice RWY available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted November 11, 2016 Report Share Posted November 11, 2016 The mountains in your area / country aren't high enough to be a problem for an 06 CTSW. There is an issue with the light wing loading however. You will not want to fly in moderate lee side turbulence so you need to be familiar with the prevailing winds and how to fly the smooth side of mtn ranges while avoiding the rotor side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredycompean Posted November 11, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2016 Thanks for your imput. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbigs Posted November 11, 2016 Report Share Posted November 11, 2016 Your implication was that all CT's have a limited useful load. I guess the term limited is subjective. I have flown several CTSW's, Several CTLS's, and a couple CTLSi. The CTLSi certainly has a limited useful load. The later CTLS with the 10" Skyviews is still somewhat limited. The early CTLS were not as bad. The CTSW certainly has the best useful load of all these. I would not consider any airplane that you can put 2 standard people plus full fuel and some baggage, and still be under gross weight to be limited. Fifty pounds more or less useful load is a rounding error. The main point being they are LSAs and as such limited in how big the humans can be and how much stuff you can take along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted November 11, 2016 Report Share Posted November 11, 2016 Fifty pounds more or less useful load is a rounding error. The main point being they are LSAs and as such limited in how big the humans can be and how much stuff you can take along. You would be correct, if it were only 50 pounds. That is the difference between a early CTLS and a CTLSi. The delta between a CTSW and the CTLSi like you had is 90 to as much as 120 pounds, with an average of 100. 100 pounds when you are dealing with a 1320 pound gross weight is significant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredycompean Posted November 21, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2016 Yeah. I think Im falling in love with this plane. I'm justa little concerned to jump in to something that might not have support later on due to the factory situation at FD. Do you guys think that they will resolve their issues and be able to provide support? How many CT are flying around the world? does anyone know? Fredy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted November 21, 2016 Report Share Posted November 21, 2016 Yeah. I think Im falling in love with this plane. I'm justa little concerned to jump in to something that might not have support later on due to the factory situation at FD. Do you guys think that they will resolve their issues and be able to provide support? How many CT are flying around the world? does anyone know? Fredy There are about 1,800 flying world wide. From what was posted in a different thread, Flight Design was split into 2 sections and they were purchased by two separate companies. IIRC both companies said they would offer support. I would expect AeroJones to offer support since they now have exclusive rights to the CT design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbigs Posted November 21, 2016 Report Share Posted November 21, 2016 Yeah. I think Im falling in love with this plane. I'm justa little concerned to jump in to something that might not have support later on due to the factory situation at FD. Do you guys think that they will resolve their issues and be able to provide support? How many CT are flying around the world? does anyone know? Fredy Another article today on Aerojones America....the product is being manufactured and supported again. And there are dozens of shops that can work on Rotax and the FD. Contact Aerojones if you have questions.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted November 21, 2016 Report Share Posted November 21, 2016 What is my implication? The point being any of the CTs can be overloaded with two males of 200lbs plus in the plane, full fuel and a modicum of luggage. Also true for most two seat airplanes. I can't think of one that does better than a CTSW. The DA-20s in use at my local flight schools have *one* pound higher useful load than my airplane (585lb vs. 586lb), but weigh 380lb more at gross at similar speeds. The CTSW will beat the useful load of a Cessna 150/152, Piper Tomahawk, or Grumman Yankee easily. You have to go pretty high performance and experimental to find airplanes (like the RVs or Glasairs) that beat the early CTs in load. The newer the CT the less true this is, but even the new ones are decent. Even your Cirrus can be overloaded with 200lb adults in all seats, full fuel, and full baggage. Most planes are not designed to fly with all stations fully loaded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbigs Posted November 21, 2016 Report Share Posted November 21, 2016 Also true for most two seat airplanes. I can't think of one that does better than a CTSW. The DA-20s in use at my local flight schools have *one* pound higher useful load than my airplane (585lb vs. 586lb), but weigh 380lb more at gross at similar speeds. The CTSW will beat the useful load of a Cessna 150/152, Piper Tomahawk, or Grumman Yankee easily. You have to go pretty high performance and experimental to find airplanes (like the RVs or Glasairs) that beat the early CTs in load. The newer the CT the less true this is, but even the new ones are decent. Even your Cirrus can be overloaded with 200lb adults in all seats, full fuel, and full baggage. Most planes are not designed to fly with all stations fully loaded. Wasn't dissing or minimizing the useful for any model CT, but some still think a 50lb delta in a plane that has a pretty small useful to start with is a major consideration...Btw, the Cirrus can't fly four 200lbers with full fuel. But then it carries 92 gallons and that's more than needed for most hops. And the baggage area allows two full sets of golf clubs and luggage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted November 21, 2016 Report Share Posted November 21, 2016 Wasn't dissing or minimizing the useful for any model CT, but some still think a 50lb delta in a plane that has a pretty small useful to start with is a major consideration...Btw, the Cirrus can't fly four 200lbers with full fuel. But then it carries 92 gallons and that's more than needed for most hops. And the baggage area allows two full sets of golf clubs and luggage. I agree with what you've said. I think the take away is that in most light airplanes you can generally fly with full fuel or full seats, but not both. I agree that a 50lb change is a larger percentage of total load in a CT than in a Cirrus. But then a CT can fly similar distances to a Cirrus (maybe not max range, but most normal hops) on far less fuel, so the weight changes to make large range changes is less. The other take away is that all airplanes are cool! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbigs Posted November 21, 2016 Report Share Posted November 21, 2016 I agree with what you've said. I think the take away is that in most light airplanes you can generally fly with full fuel or full seats, but not both. I agree that a 50lb change is a larger percentage of total load in a CT than in a Cirrus. But then a CT can fly similar distances to a Cirrus (maybe not max range, but most normal hops) on far less fuel, so the weight changes to make large range changes is less. The other take away is that all airplanes are cool! Yes. absolutely. The CT is an incredible flyer for the money. It's range is the same as the Cirrus but on a fraction of the fuel, and about 100kts slower, but certainly an adequate plane to fly up and down a state or between two of them in a day. The CT and the Sling are incredible planes when you get down to it....they are just smaller and a little slower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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