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5 year hose replacement. Years vs Hours


Buckaroo

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My 2007 CTSW had its 5 year completed by Roger Lee 12/2011. The Hobbs read 500 approximate hours. Now 5 years later with 680 hours the five year is due again. Since 2011 annuals and 25 hour oil changes have been conducted.

 

Question? Does the low in between hour count offer any credits towards the 5 year service? (I'm sure not but had to ask ????) Also my annual is due in March so can the two be done together saving time and money for duplicate work items?

 

Also I read in the books additional items like prop inspection, wing inspection, transponder inspection, dynon updates etc. Are these other items costly additional requirements and can one get the whole ball of wax done in one visit at a cost at a affordable cost?

 

Thanks

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The letter of the Rotax guidance says 5 years, regardless of hours.  That said, my understanding is that this is a Rotax maintenance interval and not echoed by Flight Design and therefore not required for airworthiness.  But of course the question comes up about how safe it is to defer this maintenance.  I have never seen a single particle of hose material in my float bowls, fuel filter, or elsewhere, at about 4 years and 400 hours flown.  Others have seen significant hose degradation after just a couple of years.

 

The questions boil down to:  What is your risk tolerance, and how lucky do you feel?

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It sounds like a Dirty Harry movie "do you feel lucky punk".

 

Seriously I'm saving money now for a Spring 5 year service. Seeing not many hours on her I feel pretty secure when I do a little flying prior to the service the hoses won't all burst on me. I'm hoping I can take her in and get the whole thing current in one two or three day visit.

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I have seen 3 planes with hose failure. One resulted in a new engine. (an oil line). Two coolant lines. One had to have the heads tested for hardness. 

A member here almost had another oil line eaten through in the back where you can not see the condition of the fire sleeve or the hose underneath.

I have posted pics here and seen numerous hoses under the clamp splitting or dry rotting and found some inside the hose where the clamp caused the barbed fitting to cut into the hose.

 

The risk is your to take. Like Andy said what's your risk level.

 

Andy tell them the terrain you flew over at Page, AZ and what if you had a failure and 1800 miles away from home.

Without a hose change you most likely wouldn't be able to sell your plane. I have had 5-6 come in the shop that didn't do it and they tried to sell their plane and couldn't because everyone wanted the hose change done. I have a Sting in my shop right now that they can't sell without it being done. His mechanics failed him in several ways over the last few years. Now just to sell his plane it will cost him approximately $4500.

 

p.s.

You have  a parachute re-pack coming in 2 years that will include the rocket.

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Did the parachute change (parachute repack only this year). It wasn't bad. I live close enough and have kids in the Twin Cities so I was able to deliver and pick it up and I got to tour the BRS repack facility.

The big thing next time will be figuring out what to do with the rocket motor.

P. S. I was not advising against the hose change, just saying what I observed on one particular CTLS.

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Did the parachute change (parachute repackaged only this year). It wasn't bad. I live close enough and have kids in the Twin Cities so I was able to deliver and pick it up and I got to tour the BRS repack facility.

The big thing next time will be figuring out what to do with the rocket motor.

Doug,

 

Please expand on your BRS repack experience. If you don't mind sharing . . . cost, turn around time (if personally dropped off and picked up ) and anything unexpected.

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Buckaroo, after seeing pictures of your engine I would not put off doing the hose change. The hose changes have been a learning experience over the years, with each one getting better as I go along. I've seen more in the way of installation errors than deterioration, even on one airplane that went 10 years. I saw things on yours that in my opinion needs addressing.

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Doug,

Please expand on your BRS repack experience. If you don't mind sharing . . . cost, turn around time (if personally dropped off and picked up ) and anything unexpected.

The cost is listed on the BRS site. If I remember correctly it is model 1350HS.

The removal is pretty straightforward done IAW :) documentation provided by FD. The unit itself is pretty heavy, so be prepared for that when you pull it loose from the mounting bracket. The biggest difficulty I had was that I first tried putting it back in by myself and I was not able to lift it and be in a position to see where the bolts were at the same time. I got some help and it was simple.

One of the screw type connecting links that connects to the chute straps took som maeuvering and was not easy to reach.

Other than that the rest of it is pretty simple. The entire canister goes to the repack center so once it is put, a set screw and a few bolts allow you to remove the rocket and you are good to go.

The facility just off the South Saint Paul airport. There they stretch out the parachute and inspect it. It is then refolded and compressed in an oven so that it can be fit back into the sleeve that pulls it out of the tube. They also were nice enough to show me a cutaway of the trigger device which actually sets off a shotgun shell primer to ignite the rocket. The rocket fires for ten seconds which is more than enough to pull the sleeve out and the of of the chute.

A lot of nice folks at BRS.

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Great info thanks! When I bought my plane the price was in balance for a near future hose job. ???? So there were no surprises plus after reading lots of valuable information here I have opened a special bank account setting aside reserves to keep up with all the proper maintenance.

 

Can someone elaborate on the practice of bringing her in for the hose job and getting the annual plus all the other work needed sans brs? I'm talking Dynon updates, prop inspection, instrument calibration, wing inspection etc.

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Tom how's about the part of my question regarding one visit hose, annual, all inspections etc.?

 

The annual inspection, hose change, wing inspection, and Dynon updates can all be done at one time no problem. I don't have the ability to do the transponder check. You will likely need to go to a avionics shop or large repair station that does the testing. The propeller inspection will be a remove and send in deal, and a good project for this time of year when flying days are few and far between. I normally bill about 25 hours labor for the hose change and inspections. I run a small airport, so keeping in the shop for 25 straight hours is almost impossible. Then if you come across something that needs replaced outside of what you planned, then you need to order parts and most places are 2 day shipping or longer to get here.

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That makes total sense! I'm glad the major things can be done in concert with each other!

 

Is there a document or consolidated listing someplace a guy can see all the items that need inspection both in airframe and engine for hours in service or time? My BMW motorcycle has service intervals for mileages

 

Example: In my prop log book I see where the prop was signed off as inspected by the A&P per IAW the scope and detail of CFR 43 Appendix D and was found to be in condition safe to operate. This was obviously a annual visual inspection affixed to the AC.

 

I read you folks discussing what's diligent to post in the log books but as a owner I find it more confusing what things need to be examined and when. If I knew those I could then ask the mechanic to check them and post such in the work papers.

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The engine checklist can be found in this document http://docusearch.flyrotax.com/files/pdf/d06147.pdf

 

The airframe can be found in this document http://documents.flightdesignusa.com/20090101%20-%20CTSW%20LSA%20-%20MM%20rev.%207%20-%20AU%20010%2002000_7.pdf

 

Propeller can be found here http://www.neuform-propellers.com/_downloads/pdf/propellermanual.pdf

 

For most equipment installed on the airplane you can search for the individual equipment service instructions.

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Andy tell them the terrain you flew over at Page, AZ and what if you had a failure and 1800 miles away from home.

Without a hose change you most likely wouldn't be able to sell your plane. I have had 5-6 come in the shop that didn't do it and they tried to sell their plane and couldn't because everyone wanted the hose change done. I have a Sting in my shop right now that they can't sell without it being done. His mechanics failed him in several ways over the last few years. Now just to sell his plane it will cost him approximately $4500.

 

p.s.

You have  a parachute re-pack coming in 2 years that will include the rocket.

 

Agreed.  I think the change should be done.  I might fudge it a few months if I didn't have any long trips or flights over difficult terrain planned, but I certainly would not let it go a year past the due date.  Once I go ELSA shortly, I will probably do mine in two parts:  I'm going to do the coolant hoses immediately (since they were done incorrectly last change and I can get to them without pulling the engine), and then do the rest of the lines at the end of summer or sooner.

 

Roger, do you have a ballpark cost estimate of a repack plus rocket change?

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Having just sold my CTLSi I can say that you will waste your time if you do not have a plane that has all maintenance current and documented (includes major maint. like the hoses and chute).  And have complete and professionally maintained log books and no damage history (or if you do have damage history be ready to give up money).

 

Buyers are brutal and will simply move on if they get a hint you have tried to skimp or delay cost items in any way.  Many also care about WHO and WHERE the mechanical work was done.

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I agree as all my toys are always maintained and kept in mint condition. Many of my questions are experimental in nature to gather opinions from members and sort out the bs against the intelligent logical opinions.

 

My plan is in April or May to fly the aircraft to a service center for the 5 year and annual. By responses to my engine photos I don't think my engine condition has been neglected. Also the prior owners really took wonderful care of the plane.

 

Now I have to figure which center can perform a truely quality job with attention to detail and complete log book entries. Closer to Montana the better. I'm researching Rocky Mountain Kit Sport in salt lake area.

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The hose change is because the type of rubber used becomes brittle from oxygen and heat exposure. There are other kinds of much better choices of rubber, but the ethanol, oil, and coolant compatibility become a factor, as does price. Someone has to pay to research it.

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I was due for a hose replacement and intended to get it done on my way back from the October 2016 Page AZ fly-in.  Prior to the trip I took the plane out for a short local flight and a coolant line failed.  I was about a year overdue. Lucky for me it happened about 100 yards from my hanger during the inbound taxi. Needless to say after replacing the coolant line, I took the plane to Roger and had the rubber replacement done in conjunction with the Page fly-in.

 

Needless to say I will be sure to do it before five years are up, not after.

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Yes I called one outfit inquiring about the 5 year hose replacement parts on a 912 uls in a 2007 FD CTSW and they asked me if it was a slsa or Experimental. I told him it was slsa and he gave me a price. He said if it was Experimental he had the hose kit with slightly better quality rubber for $250 less.????

 

I swear this business is like a murder mystery!

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I would want to know the differences. There really shouldn't be any difference. A Rotax engine is a Rotax engine. His comment would make me nervous because with ELSA he may figure he can get away with more. I would at least investigate that comment further. I believe there are right and wrong ways. Shouldn't be anything good enough for government work types. You are not relegated to a specific hose type unless we are talking about the 17mm coolant hose. Then there is only one Mfg that makes that hose and sells to Rotax and there is not good US equivalent. I've seen people try on ELSA they were the worst jobs I have ever seen and leaked.

 

If you are going to do a job do it right. It may cost less in the long run.

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