Jump to content

Best Landing set up for a newbie . . .


ibjet

Recommended Posts

I was reading this thread with great interest because I'm getting acquainted to my second hand CT2k here as well. I thought it would be great if some of the CT "moustachu" pilots out there (a french expression for "very experienced") could share their expereince with CT newbies on:

-preflight check around adn inside the plane,

-checklist at various stages around the pattern (before engine start, taxi, takeoff, downwind, etc.),

-flap position, speed AND altitude around the pattern,

-vital periodic checks (like optimal oil level).

 

I guess this can be highly appreciated as a welcome pack by CT afficionados who finally managed to get one second hand, often without much documentation.

 

Wishing you an excellent weekend.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 51
  • Created
  • Last Reply

I am not a flight instructor. I am not qualified to offer instruction. Some of the procedures and techniques I describe may be contrary to your operating manual or the advice of your flight instructor, and certainly to the advice of others on this forum. You should follow your operator’s manual and the advice of your flight instructor.

I have no mustache… However, I do have a thousand accident-free hours in a CT2k.

 

Pre-flight

I keep a clean white sheet of poster paper under my nose wheel so I can tell if anything (fuel, oil or water) has leaked out since my last flight. I check to make sure it’s clean before pulling the plane out of the hangar.

I open the oil access door, take the oil fill cap off and set it, oily side up, on the pilot’s side floor in front of the rudder pedals. This is to make sure I don’t fly without replacing it. I pull the prop thru several rotations, in the normal direction, until I hear the oil gurgle, then check the oil level. I replace the oil cap and check the water reservoir level. This sometimes requires the use of a headlamp which I keep in the pilot’s foot locker. I close the oil access door.

I check the leading edge of the prop blades for nicks

I then walk around the plane, starting toward the left wing tip, looking over all aspects of the plane but in particular checking:

Tire pressures

The response of the structure and struts to a vigorous up and down motion at each wing tip

Alerion travel

Flap play

Control surface bracket security (just a light lateral force on these)

Cargo door security

Elevator travel

Rudder travel and associated nose gear motion

 

Engine start

Belts fastened

Doors latched

Fuel shutoff lever up

Ignition key inserted

Brake set

Throttle back

Choke adjusted as needed

Master switches ON

Yell “Clear”

Start the engine

Verify oil pressure

Turn on the switches, radio and transponder

Put on headsets activate noise cancelling

Verify intercom operation

Allow oil to warm for 2 minutes at not more than 2000 rpm, then at not more than 2400 rpm to 124F

 

Pre-takeoff (CIGAR)

Controls – verify correct operation and full travel of flight controls

Instruments – Insure transponder is squawking 1200

Gas – Insure choke is full forward, fuel shutoff lever is up and fuel is showing in both wings

Attitude – Adjust elevator trim to takeoff position

Run-up – Set brake, advance throttle to 4000 rpm, verify acceptable rpm drop on both ignition systems

 

Takeoff

I lower the flaps to 15 degrees as I roll out onto the runway (otherwise they are in the full negative whenever the plane is on the ground)

I open the throttle and begin counting seconds out loud. If I do not reach flying speed in 10 seconds something is wrong (high density altitude, high gross weight, tailwind, uphill, engine problem?) and I should consider aborting.

I hold a slight forward pressure until reaching flying speed

At flying speed, I apply a slight back pressure for a clean separation

I climb out at 60 knots

At 1000 feet AGL I lower the nose and at 70 knots I lift the flaps to the zero position

I continue to accelerate and lift the flaps to the negative position at 90 knots

I Cruise climb at 100 knots to desired altitude

 

Landing

Approaching the pattern, I warn my passenger that I am going to transition to slow flight

I bring the power back and lift the nose to maintain altitude while lowering the flaps to neutral at 90 knots and to plus 15 degrees at 70 knots

I continue to decelerate to 55 knots, which I maintain throughout the pattern until flare

I pull the power all the way back on downwind abeam the numbers

Generally, I do not add power, though I don’t hesitate to do so if I’m low

If I’m high on final I may use 30 degree flaps, but more often I warn my passenger and then forward-slip

I flare and hold the plane just off the runway until it drops on

As the mains touch I bring the flaps all the way up

If its windy, I use zero flaps instead on 15 degrees

If it’s a crosswind, I slide-slip as needed to maintain the runway centerline and land wing low on the upwind main

 

Mike Koerner

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mike, so many thanks for having taken all the time and detail necessary to compose those valuable recommendations and, congrats for those 1000+ hours on your CT2K.

 

-Attitude – Adjust elevator trim to takeoff position: on my CT there are two ends, Nose Up, and Nose Down, with sevral little clicks that you can feel travelling between those two ends. Can trimming to takeoff position be anywhere in the half towards Nose UP, or do you recommend it to be set somewhere precisely?

-Flaps... are in the full negative whenever the plane is on the ground: Any reason for that?

-Flying speed in 10 seconds: what is your experience/recommendation here? My CT starts floating around 70 kmh.

-Decelerate to 55 knots: personally I noticed that my CT becomes a bit less stable at this low speed around the pattern, maybe due to thermals

-..abeam the numbers: this bit was "lost in translation"  :)

-30 degree flaps..forward-slip: do you happen to do both together, or is it or the 30 degrees or the forward slip?

 

Again, many thanks

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you Mike, I really enjoyed reading your post, excellent descriptions!

I have flown my CT 5 times now. No bad landings (dropped a bit every time, but it has not bounced, ha ha).

I understood "abeam the numbers", that is common terminology in the US.

 

I was pleased to read that you are in Palos Verdes. I flew my Mooney and earlier my C150 into Torrance airport many times. I used to love flying along the coast to the south. I assume that is where you fly out of?

 

I have not seen a CT2K, I'll have to see if I can find a picture. Not sure if I can see a picture of yours?

 

And, yes, again many thanks!

ET

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The only thing I wonder about in Mikes excellent post is the 55 knot speed in the pattern. At max gross, wind shear, sun in eyes, distractions, final overshoot, downdraft etc. your on the close to stall envelope.

 

I keep thinking of the Sheriff with 1000 hours in FD who stalled it in!????

 

I'm a high hour pilot that's a newbee to my CTSW. Rudder coordination in this aircraft is critical to me. I can picture big problems with low airspeed and off centered ball.

 

I shoot for 70 in the pattern followed by 60 on short final. Of course there are many combinations that also work well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The only thing I wonder about in Mikes excellent post is the 55 knot speed in the pattern. At max gross, wind shear, sun in eyes, distractions, final overshoot, downdraft etc. your on the close to stall envelope.

 

I keep thinking of the Sheriff with 1000 hours in FD who stalled it in!

 

I'm a high hour pilot that's a newbee to my CTSW. Rudder coordination in this aircraft is critical to me. I can picture big problems with low airspeed and off centered ball.

 

I shoot for 70 in the pattern followed by 60 on short final. Of course there are many combinations that also work well.

I'm with you !

 

Cheers

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Disagree, 55kt is just fine. At zero flaps, 55kt is almost exactly 1.3 Vs. I often fly short final at 50kt or so in calm winds. of course if conditions warrant, you can add some speed. but in normal conditions 55kt is not unsafe in any way. 60 on short final is too fast IMO.



The CTLE that crashed was aggressively maneuvering at low level and was overgross and very slow.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mike, i like your post too and use similar numbers in the pattern in a CTLS. I like your count to 10s and flying. Certainly of use on unfamiliar straps.

Did I understand correctly though that you don't remove the cowl in your preflight inspection.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry to be so slow to respond. And let me repeat again that these comments are just my opinion and obviously should not take precedence over flight manuals or flight instructors.

 

CT2k,

The trim position you use for takeoff does not have to be set precisely. The point is just to keep the stick loads reasonable during the initial climb and consistent from flight to flight. It would be hard to get used to flying a plane if it was trimmed different on every takeoff. It would also be harder to detect if something goes wrong.

Later CTSW’s have an elevator trim wheel (and rudder and alerion trim wheels too). As you describe, what we have on the CT2k’s is a trim lever with a nose up and nose down position and several detents in between. On your next takeoff you can establish a comfortable position for the trim lever, put a piece of tape on the center console to mark that position, and then use that mark for future takeoffs.

If I remember correctly, I used to use the second detent forward of the nose up (all the way back) stop. But your weight and balance and control adjustments may be different than mine.

It never seemed to me that those discrete trim detents were where I wanted them to be, especially during cruising flight. Also, the detents eventually wore out to where the trim wouldn’t stay put. My former partner designed and fabricated a neat little mechanism with a knurled wheel on a threaded shaft that hooks on to the trim lever and allows infinite adjustment with no drift. I take off with the lever about 25% forward of the rear stop.

Our planes are very light. The use of negative flaps whenever the plane is on the ground makes them less sensitive to jet and prop blasts and wind gusts.

There’s a more immediate reason for lifting the flaps as soon as you touch down. You want to get the weight off the wing and on to the wheels as quickly as possible, both so your wheel brakes become more effective (otherwise the tires just skid) and so a gust of wind doesn’t put you back in the air… or off to the side!

On other aircraft that I am familiar with, such as a Cessna 172, this is not a problem. You land with the nose up in the air, and lower it after touchdown. The result is a significant reduction in the wing’s coefficient of lift and immediate transfer of weight to the wheels.

No so on the CT2k. The angle of incidence of the wing is such that with the plane setting on the ground the wing will produce significant lift. The evidence of this is that the plane flies itself off the ground without out any back pressure at just above stall speed. You don’t need to “rotate” for takeoff. Similarly, when landing, in the fully-stalled attitude with 15 degree flaps, the nose wheel is barely off the ground. It doesn’t have far to fall after touchdown. (In fact, its takes some getting used to keep the nose from touching first and bouncing the landing.)

I don’t know if this is also an issue with the latter CTSW’s and CTLS’s, but the lack of discussion of the phenomenon on this forum makes me think not. Perhaps they have a lower angle of incidence or more elevator authority (longer tail boom or bigger horizontal). (On the other hand, Dave Ellis conducted an extensive analysis of this years ago and wrote about it on the previous forum, and I think he was flying a CTSW).

It may also be aircraft specific to some degree, as a function of the cg location for example.

I have somewhat alleviated the problem by putting tundra tires on the mains and keeping the little wheel up front. My calculations show that this gives me an extra 3 degrees of nose clearance at touch down (at the cost of about ½” prop clearance during taxi). I have not bounced a landing in the 6 or so years since.

Still, the best way to complete the transition from flying to rolling on the ground, and make that transition stick; is to lift the flaps.

I apply light back pressure between 45 and 50 knots for a clean transition on takeoff. That’s faster than the 70 kmh at which you “float off”. Maybe my bigger mains and resulting lower angle of attack on the ground help hold me on a little longer. You certainly don’t want to hold the plane down aggressively as you'll end up on the nose gear only.

If your plane does not feel stable at 55 knots you should use a faster pattern speed. In gusty conditions, I use a higher pattern speed as well (I should have said that). At lower speeds you will need greater control deflections to compensate for turbulence.

Abeam the numbers refers to a position on the downwind leg of the landing pattern when you’re across from the approach end of the runway.

I haven’t tried an aggressive slip with 30 degree flaps? For me it’s one or the other. What does the flight manual say about this? Have other people done this? What do the flight instructors on this forum say?

 

Ibjet,

I fly out of Torrance. It's a nice airport but the noise abatement rules do not allow takeoff before 7am weekdays and 8am on weekends. That’s a problem if you’re trying to get off early. Worse, it’s often fogged in until noon. But, it sure is fun to watch the whales this time of year.

 

Buckaroo,

When I’m in the pattern my plane is trimmed for my pattern speed (I should have said that). It’s not really sensitive to the sun in my eyes or distractions. The plane will fly itself and maintain that speed just fine. I just have to decide when I’m going to make my base turn. And flying slow gives me more time to make that decision.

As Andy points out, 1.3 times stall (plus ½ the wind gust delta) is pretty standard. In calm conditions, even at max gross, that’s just a little more than 50 knots. But our airspeed indicators may not be calibrated identically (or accurately). And your comment about wind shear and turbulence is certainly valid. And higher speed is not going to hurt anything… as long as you don’t carry it to touchdown on a short field.

 

ctfarmer,

Though I don’t remove my cowling as part of my standard preflight, I realize this is a recommended practice... and think it’s a fine idea. By way of excuses I would offer that: 1) I am the only one flying my airplane; 2) It’s keep safe and sound in a hanger that only I have the key to; and 3) I monitor it for leakage very effectively with a clean sheet of paper under the nose.

 

Doug,

If 70 on downwind, 62 on base, and 55 on final is what’s in the manual... I think that’s a real good procedure.

On the other hand, I’m not sure I have time to adjust the trim for 3 different speeds in the pattern. That would certainly keep me busy.

One advantage of the CT, for me at least, is that it flies slow enough that I don’t get too far behind it. I need to keep this stuff as simple as possible.

 

Mike Koerner

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You have one of the best and quickest onboard computers in all planes. It sits on top of your shoulders. It has a camera, it evaluates, it calculates, makes adjustments and then does this over and over constantly as you descend to the runway. Why handicap that computer by limiting its computations and being rigid in your actions.

 

 

It truly makes no difference how many adjustments you make. Just make a nice landing. No two people will ever do it the exact same way and no two landings may be exactly the same. 

 

You do what needs to be done. If you are rigid and not flexible then that's a time you may set yourself up for  poor landings or a major mistake.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You have one of the best and quickest onboard computers in all planes. It sits on top of your shoulders. It has a camera, it evaluates, it calculates, makes adjustments and then does this over and over constantly as you descend to the runway. Why handicap that computer by limiting its computations and being rigid in your actions.

 

 

It truly makes no difference how many adjustments you make. Just make a nice landing. No two people will ever do it the exact same way and no two landings may be exactly the same. 

 

You do what needs to be done. If you are rigid and not flexible then that's a time you may set yourself up for  poor landings or a major mistake.

Wiser words are rarely written !   :clap-3332:

 

Cheers

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

If 70 on downwind, 62 on base, and 55 on final is what’s in the manual... I think that’s a real good procedure.

On the other hand, I’m not sure I have time to adjust the trim for 3 different speeds in the pattern. That would certainly keep me busy.

One advantage of the CT, for me at least, is that it flies slow enough that I don’t get too far behind it. I need to keep this stuff as simple as possible.

 

 

That's an interesting point.  I do use three speeds:  ~75kt on downwind, ~57kt on base, ~50kt on final.  But I only touch the trim once -- abeam the numbers I pull power to idle and then roll the trim all the way back nose up so it's trimmed for slowest speed.  Once the airplane is slowed for the base turn, I am right at my 57kt base target speed.  From that point on I leave the trim all the way back and adjust pitch to get the speed I want.  If I'm going to use 30° flaps, I add the final flaps in as I roll out on final.  Once I'm established on final I rarely touch the flaps.  If I'm high I will use a slip to lose altitude instead of adding flaps.

 

This leaves me using slight back pressure on the stick to maintain my typical final speeds of 48-54kt.  I find this very comfortable and predictable.  Note all the speeds I mention here are in calm winds, things will speed up a bit in gusty conditions.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's an interesting point.  I do use three speeds:  ~75kt on downwind, ~57kt on base, ~50kt on final.  But I only touch the trim once -- abeam the numbers I pull power to idle and then roll the trim all the way back nose up so it's trimmed for slowest speed.  

 

This is the issue with offering how to instruction on forums. Your CT has the added spring on the elevator, and requires the trim to be rolled all the way back. My CTSW required almost no trim adjustment after 15° flaps were deployed.

What people seem to forget is while all of the CT models are similar there are differences, and sometimes there differences between airplanes of the same model.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is the issue with offering how to instruction on forums. Your CT has the added spring on the elevator, and requires the trim to be rolled all the way back. My CTSW required almost no trim adjustment after 15° flaps were deployed.

What people seem to forget is while all of the CT models are similar there are differences, and sometimes there differences between airplanes of the same model.

 

I agree, I was not offering my post as a "you should do this" suggestion, I was just saying what works in my airplane for me.  I really didn't know the additional spring requires different trim use in the pattern though, that is interesting information.  Might make things interesting if somebody hopped into a CT of a different vintage than they are used to, they might get a surprise!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Been there. I've flown all years worth of CT's. All the same except the seating and view between SW & LS. Same for a 1000 lb flight veses a 1475 lb flight. After the CT you could step into a Sport Cruiser, RV12, Sting, Sling Rans,,, ect and most likely would do just fine. Never had one throw a curve yet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dear Mike, maybe I can never express enough gratefulness for your thorough and patient reply to my post. I learned a lot from your reply and from your experience with your CT. God Bless your valuable time.

Input from other forum friends is very interesting too. Many thanks to all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As a newbie to the CT I can see where I'm flying a little fast in most pattern locations. Today I went out and tried to bring the speeds back a bit and quickly found the plane feeling tamer and relaxed. Time in ground effect to landing was faster with less runway used.

 

Today was my second day out on my own and I had a blast! This little bird is a wonderful machine! I can believe I stumbled on the FD out of sure luck!????????????

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks again to all the contributors to this thread. Especially thankful to Mike Koerner for taking time to put in all that valuable detail. And, I was very tickled by the specifics that Andy Walker gave about when he cuts to idle, trims, etc. I will strive to create my own habits along the same lines. I tried cutting power abeam the numbers, but I like doing a long downwind so that was too soon for me. I will attempt to shorten my downwind to make that work for me.

 

ET

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks again to all the contributors to this thread. Especially thankful to Mike Koerner for taking time to put in all that valuable detail. And, I was very tickled by the specifics that Andy Walker gave about when he cuts to idle, trims, etc. I will strive to create my own habits along the same lines. I tried cutting power abeam the numbers, but I like doing a long downwind so that was too soon for me. I will attempt to shorten my downwind to make that work for me.

 

ET

 

Thanks.  It's all good and personal preference regarding length of downwind.  I fly very tight patterns, close to the runway on downwind and turning base probably a quarter mile from the end of the runway.  I like that distance because it feels like I could probably make it to the runway if the engine quit anywhere in the sequence.  

 

But the downside to this method is that I'm barely established on base when it's time to turn final.  Flying a little farther out and a longer downwind gives you more time to get established and some time between turns, there's nothing wrong with that at all.  In fact I do find myself making my patterns a little larger at unfamiliar airports, it helps to give yourself a bit more time and to better visualize the airport environment on your approach.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...