Landing on grass and fields?

[ausctls]

If its 20kts @ 90 degrees I'd keep the flaps up 

[ralarcon]

20 knot crosswind isn't too bad. This to depends on the crosswind component angle. If you have some experience then some flaps may not be a big deal. If you have little experience then zero flaps would be better.

Zero flaps with about 2500-2800 rpm to touch. The rpm will give you prop wash which in turn gives you far better control over the tal and direction of the plane. I can land like this up to 35 knots. Of course I would rather not, but I've been caught a number of times. I also like the plane to be heavy in stronger winds.

 

Some say that is too fast for them. Remember the stick controls the speed.

Well on the  one millionth day God gave us brakes and you shouldn't be afraid to use them.

Agree, that is my technique too, of course given enough runway, to come in faster.

 

Cheers

[ct9000]

Talking about crosswind component at 20kt. eg at 90deg. Roger is correct saying heavy is better in strong / gusty conditions, maybe a bit more inertia ? I don't like using zero flap and carrying power because the speed picks up quickly. in answer to #23 into wind wing low 30deg flap about 55kt.approach. start flare reduce power touch down on one wheel need lots of rudder at this point. It is not easy to keep the nose wheel off for long when the other main wheel touches down. you will now be very slow and can raise flap. Grass is easier than sealed runway because of a bit of slip instead of tires biting on bitumen, but do not try 20kt. crosswind in wet grass. I watched a Jabiru land on wet grass in a strong crosswind he used heaps of power to stop as he slid backwards off the runway a bit scary.

[Buckaroo]

Why do all my no wind landings always take me a little left of the center line and requiring right rudder getting me back to center before adding power for touch and go?

 

I can grease the landing but immediately after all three are on the ground she starts traveling a bid left requiring almost aggressive right rudder!

[WmInce]

Why do all my no wind landings always take me a little left of the center line and requiring right rudder getting me back to center before adding power for touch and go?

I can grease the landing but immediately after all three are on the ground she starts traveling a bid left requiring almost aggressive right rudder!

You need a "positive point of reference."

Until you get more comfortable and confident, make that "point of reference" right between your legs or directly under your butt.

In other words . . . fly the airplane so the runway centerline stays right between your legs and does not veer off to either side. How much rudder to use? Simple answer is . . whatever it takes!

Practice, practice, practice . . . on each and every landing.

[Buckaroo]

I've learned to do that line on inside of my left leg tip awhile ago. It was one of the best tips I got on this forum. This is after the landing she just starts heading left every time. I'm wondering now if its not p-factor or prop wash effect on the left side of the rudder? This is before I add power.

[WmInce]

I've learned to do that line on inside of my left leg tip awhile ago. It was one of the best tips I got on this forum. This is after the landing she just starts heading left every time. I'm wondering now if its not p-factor or prop wash effect on the left side of the rudder? This is before I add power.

Parked, with the nose wheel off the ground (by pushing tail down), when pedals are exactly even (neutral position), where does the nosewheel point?

 

If it is pointing a little to the left, that could be the problem.

[Buckaroo]

I'll try that and thanks! Now if it is off is this a simple adjustment?

[Roger Lee]

This is where you have your trim set for flight. So just before touch or just at touch you may move left. It isn't a big deal just counter act it now that you know it's there.

 

You'll never be good at landing in winds unless you go practice in winds. Start at 10 then 15 then 20 then 25 mph. Better to practice on your terms than to one day have to do it for real  in strongs winds with no practice or experience under your belt.

[Buckaroo]

This is where you have your trim set for flight. So just before touch or just at touch you may move left. It isn't a big deal just counter act it now that you know it's there.

 

You'll never be good at landing in winds unless you go practice in winds. Start at 10 then 15 then 20 then 25 mph. Better to practice on your terms than to one day have to do it for real in strongs winds with no practice or experience under your belt.

I've got maybe 10 to 15 landings at 10 to 15 at maybe 45 degrees left and right with little drama. 15 knot crosser is going to be interesting but I'll work into it.

 

On another subject forward slips are intriguing compared to my Cessna days! I get a uneasy feeling with those for some reason!

[Runtoeat]

I maintain a good margin of speed above published stall during slips.  Remember too that your pitot tube isn't providing forward travel air pressure so your air speed might not be showing correctly on your instruments.  FWIW, I'm in the "full flap" landing camp and this aides slip landings by allowing flight at a slower stall speed.

[FlyingMonkey]

Call me chicken, but if there is a 20kt 90 degree crosswind, I'm going to search long and hard for a better aligned runway before attempting that landing. Could I do it? Probably, but winds at that level will punish a CT severly for the slightest error in technique.

 

As for slips, I find that I need to pick up the nose a bit to keep the airplane from picking up speed. As noted the pitot is not getting direct airflow in a slip, so it probably reads low. even so I will usually pick up 10 knots or more in the slip if I don't lift and actively manage the nose. I'm guessing the extra drag on the airframe wants to drop the nose, requiring back pressure to keep the drag profile where you want it.

 

My flight instructor says the Diamond DA-20s he trains in do the same thing.

[Roger Lee]

Everyone has their own personal wind limits. You'll have to practice and find yours. I good solid comfort and experience zone for this will make you flying less stressful.

[FredG]

I'm with Andy on both issues.  I have made full rudder deflection slip landings in my 2006 CTsw with 15 degrees of flaps.  Not comfortable and little margin.  I have nearly 3000 landings in nine years of flying the CT.  IIRC, FD says maximum demonstrated crosswind capability is below 20 kts, although people do report that they have landed with stronger crosswinds.  I suspect that the crosswind at the ground was, in fact, below that indicated at the wind sock for the AWOS for those landings. 

 

I find that my plane will stall while just getting into the yellow chevrons on the Dynon AOA indicator when in a full slip with 15 or 30 degrees of flaps.  Indicated airspeed is almost 10 kts above published wings level stall speeds.

 

My airplane only. 

[WmInce]

Just for the record, for the CTSW:

 

As per Flight Training Supplement CTSW, the maximum direct crosswind component at take-off is 14 kts.

As per Aircraft Operating Instructions CTSW, the maximum direct cross wind component for takeoff and landing with 0º flaps 16 kts (30 km/h) with 40º flaps 11 kts (20 km/h). Interpolation may be required for other flap settings.

[Doug G.]

Just for the record, for the CTSW:

 

As per Flight Training Supplement CTSW, the maximum direct crosswind component at take-off is 14 kts.

As per Aircraft Operating Instructions CTSW, the maximum direct cross wind component for takeoff and landing with 0º flaps 16 kts (30 km/h) with 40º flaps 11 kts (20 km/h). Interpolation may be required for other flap settings.

That is the maximum "demonstrated" crosswind component. It is not a limit.

[FlyingMonkey]

That is the maximum "demonstrated" crosswind component. It is not a limit.

Absolutely agreed. Though at anything beyond demonstrated numbers you are moonlighting a bit as an unpaid test pilot.

[Roger Lee]

The CTSW Operating Handbook says 25 knots max and many here have found out that with a good pilot that can be exceeded.

It says 30 flaps 16 knots. That just goes to show they to like clean or a reduced flap setting for higher wind components.

 

The whole thing boils down to pilot max crosswind acceptability ( acceptable risk ) and pilot experience.

[FredG]

Roger,

 

I am looking at the CTsw AOI (Revision date 29-Apr-2008), Section 4.5 "Crosswind and wind limitations" which states, "The maximum demonstrated crosswind is 30 km/h / 16 kts."

 

Furthermore, it states, "CAUTION!  Due to the light operating weighs and low minimum flight speeds of Light Sport Aircraft, operations with surface winds in excess of 46 km/h / 25 kts should not be attempted."

 

The 01.04.2008 Flight Training Supplement has the following information (Section 5, Performance of the CTSW, page 5-1) -

"Maximum direct cross wind components for takeoff and landing-

with 0 degrees flaps 16 kts

with 40 degrees flaps 11 kts"

 

I am a big believer in remaining within one's comfort zone, but I do not agree that "the whole thing" is just a matter of pilot experience and risk tolerance.  At some point, there is actual physics involved.

[Tom Baker]

I'm with Fred, regardless of experience or skill there is a physical limit to what an airplane can handle

 

I have taken off in an airplane with a crosswind that exceded the limits of said aircraft. With full aileron in place the airplane was skipping sideways across the runway as I accelerated for take off. Then it yawed abruptly into the wind upon becoming airborne.

 

On a few occasions I have made a go around on landing because of excessive crosswind. Our airport has crossing runways, so I switched to the other runway.

[Roger Lee]

Hi Fred,

 

Read the caution section under  the statement you posted. I tried a cut and paste, but it wouldn't work. You can also change the cross wind component by landing diagonally on a runway if it is wide enough. Pilots train in the box thinking and rarely think outside that box because they don't train that way.

[Buckaroo]

I think another consideration should be a taxi tip over accident or flip over at tie down. If you're tackling 25 knot winds a small gust at just the proper position could dangerously tip the plan.

 

When I was teaching cadets at the Air Force Academy we would land with crazy high winds and immediately call out the swing sets for taxi. Staff would actually run to the planes on the ramp and clip a swing on the up wind tie down and ride in with us.

 

My friend had his Rans 7 flip on him last summer in Arizona just after taxi and before tie down.

[ct9000]

I agree with Roger you can halve the crosswind component if the runway is wide enough. Also note that the demonstrated crosswind is the most that was available at the time of the test flights, in other words if there was not 20kt. available it can't be demonstrated.

[FredG]

Regarding diagonal landings to reduce the crosswind component... do the math.  To reduce the crosswind component by 50% you have to turn 60 degrees into the crosswind component (winds that are 30 degrees off the centerline still produces a crosswind component that is half of the full wind value). Geometry doesn't lie.  Will your runway allow that?

 

Roger, your comment to me that, "Pilots train in the box thinking and rarely think outside that box because they don't train that way." is just plain condescending and unnecessary.

 

Finally, I have no idea what you mean when you write "Read the caution section under the statement you posted."  I did read it.  What is your point?  

[Doug G.]

Something I would not do again... I landed in 26g32. The landing was good, but when I turned onto the taxiway I thought I had a flat main - I just had not pinned the nose wheel down and it was weathervaning. I had a long taxi much of it in 90 degree cross winds. Holding the controls in the right direction with the flaps at -6 it did my try to lift a wing and did not weathervane. (Although you could fell it trying.)

Unintended consequence- I now know the plane's limits and my personal limits.