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Landing on grass and fields?


Buckaroo

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Each pilot must be familiar with the contents of the Aircraft Operating Instructions Manual and abide by all placards, limitations and checklists. Under Operating Limitations in that manual, Section 4.5 lists Crosswind and wind limitations (CTSW).

 

Just because it says "demonstrated," it does not disqualify it from being a limitation. Otherwise, it would not be a sub-section of the Operating Limitations section. Is it put there for information only?

 

My experience has shown, that is the standard and accepted interpretation with the miliary and airlines.

For airlines specifically, if it is listed in the Operational Specifications (Op Specs), then that is the legal limit.

 

Our CT's do not fly under Op Specs, therefore it is kind of a gray area.

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Hi Fred,

 

You may think it is condescending, but my experience over the last 37 years of flying says it's true more times than not. I didn't make it that way the other pilots did. I'm just the reporter. People have fears and phobias. I love to challenge all mine and it makes me feel alive, but that isn't normal for the average person.

People are uncomfortable because they at one time or another get themselves outside their operational box so it's good to get there on your own terms and under some kind of control before that day is thrust upon you unexpectedly. 

I love to take people and throw them out of a plane (skydiving) or off a cliff (rappelling) or baiting sharks, walk through the jungle at night catching animals, walking through a burning building and making it flashover on purpose and watch the flames roll overheadect... You've got to love that wide eyed fear and after it's over they feel accomplished, excited and ready to go again.

 

My point was 24 knots is higher than than the post of 16 knots. I know many CT pilots that have landed well over 16 and well over 24 knots. Actually into the 30's. The CT manual of 24 knot limit in reality may be published due to liability, but the play can handle much more.  I personally have had to land in 35's. No one said it was easy. You just have to take advantage of changing the equation to solve the problem. You can't do that if all you do is land straight down a line and never practice in winds over 20 knots. 

 

As a lifetime thrill seeker I can absolutely say you have to practice as you play. (Fire Dept. and Police Dept. mantra) Failing to do this leaves you unprepared for the occasional curveball.. My enjoyment in life has been pushing and taking people outside their comfort zones to show and prove to them they are better than they believe. Education and CONTROLLED fear works wonders for lifting one above themselves.

 

The worst risk in life to take..........is no risk at all. ;)

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Hi Doug,

 

I would say most CT pilots have been well over 16 knot landings.

 

Flaps 0° 16 kt (30 km/h)

Agree ! ;) Me, KTMB Runway 9L  Winds 10 degrees 18K gusting to 25, Flag at the end of the runway was more like 360 degrees, had wife as a passenger, 20 gallons in the tanks, flaps -6  don't know at what speed I put the wheels on the runway but it was fast .  On my last visit.

 

Cheers

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Now I'll explain myself. :rolleyes:  :D  

 

The crosswind limit isn't in the book. That's a liability crosswind limit.

 

The crosswind limit is YOU up until, like Tom said, the wind is physically too strong and the plane can no longer stay on it's wheels.

So where is the real crosswind limit?

 

YOU ARE the answer to the crosswind?

 

Top Gun school in Miramar, CA is the perfect example where limits are found and taught.

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Now I'll explain myself. :rolleyes:  :D  

 

The crosswind limit isn't in the book. That's a liability crosswind limit.

 

The crosswind limit is YOU up until, like Tom said, the wind is physically too strong and the plane can no longer stay on it's wheels.

So where is the real crosswind limit?

 

YOU ARE the answer to the crosswind?

 

Top Gun school in Miramar, CA is the perfect example where limits are found and taught.

 

You are putting words in my mouth. Personally I believe the limit is the point where with full control inputs that you can no longer keep the longitudinal axis of the airplane over and aligned with the centerline of the runway. Any crosswind that is beyond this is exceeding the limit. Can you put the airplane on the ground in a crosswind greater than this? Yes, but you will be putting a side load of some type on the landing gear.

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Hi Doug,

 

I would say most CT pilots have been well over 16 knot landings.

 

Flaps 0° 16 kt (30 km/h)

The 16kt number quoted is a crosswind number. I'd bet most CT pilots have NOT landed with a direct crosswind component over 16kt. That is a pretty heroic direct cross in these airplanes. I have landed 24G32 down the runway, but I bet I've not landed more than about 12-14kt direct crosswind component. And even then it's quite a handfull, and I'm quite happy to avoid more than that as often as I can.

 

As for the "Top Gun" thing...of course, but that is not the kind of flying we do, nor the kind I want to do. Military pilots have about a 25% career mortality rate, in both peace and wartime. I'm not interested in flying in a way that means I have a one-in-four chance of dying over my flying career.

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Hi Tom,

 

" Personally I believe the limit is the point where with full control inputs that you can no longer keep the longitudinal axis of the airplane over and aligned with the centerline of the runway."

 

Exactly what we both said. But we don't need to land on a line. It's just paint. That's what we teach fire and police in driving school. It's just paint on the line. Use whatever asphalt you need to accomplish your task.

 

Always believing you have to be on a line is that in the box thinking  instead of thinking outside the box and solving your initial problem.

 

If you don't like the problem and results then change the game.

 

​I've ask for taxiway landings and gotten them approved. No line, but a different direction. On wide runways I have landed diagonally to the line

 

If you don't like the rules you are working with change them.

 

It's still all about a good safe landing no mater what.

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Consider landing on a hypothetical Rwy 36 with a 20 kt wind from 09.  Full value crosswind.  Now, the runway is 150 feet wide, and to be conservative, you will use 100 ft of the runway width to execute a diagonal landing.  Also, consider that you are landing with a speed that will use 750 feet of runway before stopping.  What is the actual crosswind component in this scenario?

 

Well, the triangle has one leg that is 750 feet and one leg that is 100 feet.  The angle you land at is the arc-tan of (100/750), which is 8 degrees.

 

Now, you get to subtract 8 degrees from 90 degrees so that the crosswind direction is 82 degrees from your landing path rather than 90 degrees from your landing path.  The sin of 82 degrees is 0.99.  So, your crosswind component is now 19.8 kts rather than 20 kts.  Big benefit? 

 

In virtually every situation in which a pilot is going to land a CT, the idea that landing diagonal to the center-line will reduce the crosswind component to any meaningful extent is a myth.  I'm sure many will repeat the myth over and over, but it is still a myth every time. 

 

I don't like the rules of geometry, but I am pretty sure I have no authority to change them.

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Roger, we are not saying the same thing! I stated what the limit is, and your example would be exceeding it.

 

Keeping it on the line is not an in or out of the box type thing, but if you can no longer keep it on the line with all the control you have available you have exceeded the crosswind limit of the airplane. This doesn't mean you can't land across the runway or on a taxiway. You can also land in a skid side loading the landing gear. I didn't say that you can't land if you can't keep it on the centerline.

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The 16kt number quoted is a crosswind number. I'd bet most CT pilots have NOT landed with a direct crosswind component over 16kt. That is a pretty heroic direct cross in these airplanes. I have landed 24G32 down the runway, but I bet I've not landed more than about 12-14kt direct crosswind component. And even then it's quite a handfull, and I'm quite happy to avoid more than that as often as I can.

 

As for the "Top Gun" thing...of course, but that is not the kind of flying we do, nor the kind I want to do. Military pilots have about a 25% career mortality rate, in both peace and wartime. I'm not interested in flying in a way that means I have a one-in-four chance of dying over my flying career.

Well, it also depends on how you set up your aircraft, to land, and what technique you use. Certain "techniques" augment your set up and ability to land the aircraft, in the presence of high crosswinds.

 

Cheers

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Well, it also depends on how you set up your aircraft, to land, and what technique you use. Certain "techniques" augment your set up and ability to land the aircraft, in the presence of high crosswinds.

 

Cheers

I don't disagree, but in the presence of crosswinds approaching the control limits of the airplane, I believe the best technique is to find a better-aligned runway. Discretion is the better part of valor.

 

This is not to say that a situation can't arise where there is no better option within fuel range, or with darkness falling, etc. But those are circumstances that must be dealt with -- I try hard not to voluntarily put myself and my craft in unecessary jeopardy by intentionally taking things right to the limit of what we are both capable of.

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This is not to say that a situation can't arise where there is no better option within fuel range, or with darkness falling, etc. But those are circumstances that must be dealt with -- I try hard not to voluntarily put myself and my craft in unecessary jeopardy by intentionally taking things right to the limit of what we are both capable of.

Most excellent.

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