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Landing Flaps Summary thread


Ed Cesnalis

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I can't prove what you claim my position is to the standards you require so go ahead and label me failure.

 

Why put words in my mouth and those resulting requirements?

 

I have only made 2 points, more energy = more risk, and extra speed only postpones the vulnerable speed, failing to solve the issue instead making the timing a bit worse.

 

I never said anyone was wrong I only pointed out that the counter-arguments never address my 2 points.

 

Light general aviation is dying and statistics that you demand aren't available because of diminishing numbers as well as how mishaps are reported. This is not a CT issue but a light airplane issue.

 

Decades ago Mammoth and South Lake Tahoe had the worst safety records in the nation and were busy with light aircraft. Then the more frequent rate of mishaps made it easy to see that they often were loss of control on rollout when wind sheer is present. The teaching that fast only postpones the vulnerable stage comes from an older generation of pilots that have now moved on.

I didn't mean for it t sound like I'm calling you a failure on this. But you have been a very vocal advocate that your method is the right way, and other ways are riskier. I was just pointing out that without some data to back that up, it's hard to say either method is empirically better from a safety standpoint.

 

I generally agree that a slow landing is usually a safer landing. But I also agree with some others that in a CT the airplane has more predictable and easy to manage handling at the 15 setting. And as I stated, we are really talking small differences here. I have done the testing; my airplane touches down at 45kt with flaps 15, and 42-43 at flaps 30. And the vulnerability to gusts and wind effects rolling out at 30 before you can get the flaps up is a real thing.

 

Anyway, I just wanted to make sure you didn't feel I was attacking your technique. I have great respect for your ability to fly out of the airport and conditions you do, and for your opinions. But I just wanted to be clear that it is an opinion, and not a fact with no room for dispute. But, all friendly discussion since we all at least agree that we have the best damn airplanes in the LSA class.

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Gust in a crosswind can call for opposing rudder if it is weathervaning you and flaperon into the gust. I don't maintain alignment with aileron I yaw with rudder.

 

With all due respect Tom it feels like you are changing the subject. Your basis for avoiding landing without flaperons is important.

 

Ed, I don't think you are reading things as I intended them to be read when I typed them. In my first post I used the example of the spin entry only to explain why the wing tip is stalling. My choice of left or right really had no meaning other than to describe one situation. It can happen either direction.

 

As for your 2 points I mostly agree. Most often landing as slow as you can will have the lower risk factor. I am simply trying to point out that when you have a crosswind the risk can change from having the least amount of energy, to basically have the wingtip stall and drop like entering a spin. If you are just inches above the ground when this happen, then it is not a big deal, but if you are 3-4 feet high you can break something. In the case of a crosswind I would rather take the increase risk of the extra energy to lower the risk of a tip stall. One other thing is if you have some headwind component to go with the crosswind component the increase airspeed will be negated by the decreased ground speed.

 

For the crosswind gust it takes both control inputs. Aileron to stop the drift and rudder to maintain alignment

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I tend to fly my 2006 CTsw well below gross (just me and 15 gallons of fuel).  With no crosswind, I will land with 30 degrees of flaps with airspeed around 50 kts on short final and around 44 kts over the fence.  I do flare just prior to contact with the runway and try to hold the nose wheel off until I slow a bit.  It is important to be careful when applying back pressure in the flare because, as has been noted many times, the plane will balloon easily if the pilot is clumsy with the stick.  I try to get the stick full aft just as the mains touch, but I don't always achieve it.  

 

One of my flying goals is to be proficient with short field landings and so I practice that technique a lot.  I usually turn off my home field runway at 600 feet.  At gross I will fly a few kts faster, but not above 50 kts over the fence.  My experience is that above 50 kts, I will either float in ground effects for hundreds of feet or I will land flat on all three gear simultaneously. 

 

As conditions deteriorate, I adjust my landing technique.  First, I always increase my landing speed by half the gust factor.  With steady crosswinds up to about 12 kts direct, I will land a couple of kts faster but still with 30 degrees of flaps.  With gusting crosswind, I will use 15 degrees of flaps. If conditions are gusting to the demonstrated crosswind limits of the airplane, I may land with zero flaps at speeds up to 55 kts. I do not attempt a short-field landing under these circumstances.  My criterion for go-around is when I am unable to hold centerline with a full rudder deflection slip.  

 

After nearly three thousand landings in my 2006 CTsw, I now land a lot slower than I did when I less experience in the CT.  Under most circumstances, I feel more in control of the landing - from final approach to taxi - when landing at lower speeds than I did when landing at higher speeds.  But, as noted above, when conditions get more demanding, my airspeeds increase and I deploy less flap. To channel Fast Eddie... but, that's just me.

 

Remember, your airspeed calibration may be different than mine and my speeds may not appropriate for you.  Also, I am not an instructor nor am I trying to convince anybody to fly or land the way that I do.  I just thought I would add another data point to the discussion.  

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I tend to fly my 2006 CTsw well below gross (just me and 15 gallons of fuel).  With no crosswind, I will land with 30 degrees of flaps with airspeed around 50 kts on short final and around 44 kts over the fence.

 

FredG, that is a nice summary of technique.  From curiosity, why 30deg flaps with no crosswind instead of 40?

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For those advocating "flying onto the ground," which I understand to mean touching down well above stall speed, even in non-crosswind conditions, how do you keep it on the ground?  In my limited time flying the CT, if I touch with any excess speed at all, I bounce (even lightly) back airborne almost immediately, before I can get the flaps retracted.  You can dump the stick or touch the brakes, but that loads the front wheel.

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Some of our terms are synonymous with each others terms we are just using a slightly different terminology.

 

Most all of us touch between 40-47 knots.

 

The stick controls.

 

You could taxi on the ground at 60-80 mph if you wanted. 

If you bounce or balloon that's poor stick control. Most bounce or balloon because they are jacking the stick and don't hold it still and have poor perception of speed coupled with stick position. Bouncing usually means landing before the plane is ready and then adding back pressure to the stick before you should.

 

Just because you don't land at a fully stalled speed doesn't mean the plane will fly and or maintain altitude. It's still flying so slow it sinks and touches the ground. It's up to you if it stays there.

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A bounce comes from 2 things. Rolling over an irregularity on the surface, and touching down with to great of a vertical descent component. The second is the one we are most concerned with as a pilot. Lifting of because you increased the angle of attack to a point, that for your airspeed you created enough lift to rise back off the ground is not a bounce. However it could lead to a bounce.

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JLang - I find that the airplane is a little less predictable with 40 of flaps and a bit more prone to giving me the sensation of dropping out from under me when slow coming over the fence.  it also seems a bit more prone to dropping a wing when stalled at 40 than at 30.  So, I tend to use 40 degrees less than 30 degrees.  If I want to make as short a landing as possible, then I will use 40.  But, its not my usual practice.

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for the life of me I can't figure out what camp I'm in. It's screwing with my CT identity!

 

I come over the fence at 50-55, 15 degrees, fly above the runway, let it settle down (patiently) then as its settling I try to keep it in the air for as long as possible and pull back almost at the same time the mains touch.

 

So it's not really a full flare landing it's more that I'm TRYING to make it fly right above the runway and as the speed bleeds that requires a greater AOA which I create with the stick. It always touches down before I stall but the stick is back.

 

As a new owner the biggest gain I made in the quality of my landings was when I changed my objective from "get the plane on the ground" to simply "fly the plane 6 inches above the runway"

 

I carry 2100-2500 rpm to the ground depending on conditions. It has saved my landing a few times now by giving me razor sharp control.

 

What camp am I?

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I got to put my money where my mouth is the other day. After bloviating on this forum about crosswind landings I went out to take a little flight. This would be my 5th flight in my 07 CTSW. Coming back to the field I quickly noticed the wind stock swing 90 degrees to the runway appearing to be 12 knots or so. The thing was it was swinging maybe 20 degrees with gusts. I'd been flying around with -6 flaps and descended over the field entering a left downwind to 14. I decided I'd attempt this with zero flaps and proceeded to crab for the landing. In all the excitement I forgot to zero the flaps and approached with -6 and 70 knots on final. I started the slip and noticed my speed not slowing as usual. Anyway I got her down but felt fast with the nose not wanting to settle. Finally she settled and things settled down but without some pucker factor.

 

I think two things happened to add a little drama to the event. First forgetting I was still at -6 added some speed in ground affect. Second I got a small degree of tail wind in the landing pushing me down the runway. I think to do over I'd gone with 15 flaps and tested a dry run do to the possible tailwind possibility.

 

It was a great experience overall.

 

I love this airplane!????

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for the life of me I can't figure out what camp I'm in. It's screwing with my CT identity!

 

I come over the fence at 50-55, 15 degrees, fly above the runway, let it settle down (patiently) then as its settling I try to keep it in the air for as long as possible and pull back almost at the same time the mains touch.

 

So it's not really a full flare landing it's more that I'm TRYING to make it fly right above the runway and as the speed bleeds that requires a greater AOA which I create with the stick. It always touches down before I stall but the stick is back.

 

As a new owner the biggest gain I made in the quality of my landings was when I changed my objective from "get the plane on the ground" to simply "fly the plane 6 inches above the runway"

 

I carry 2100-2500 rpm to the ground depending on conditions. It has saved my landing a few times now by giving me razor sharp control.

 

What camp am I?

 

I'd say you are in the camp of "good landing technique".  :)

 

The "wait of it to settle and hold off touching down" method is great for any flap settings, and it will ensure a full stall landing or nearly so.  I do the same thing in all my landings at any setting, and the touchdown has me with the stick full aft or within a half inch or so of that.  

 

The "camps" here are really kind of nit-picking between flap settings.  The reality is that if you do as you describe, you'll make a great landing 95% of the time if your alignment is good, regardless of the flap setting.  Carrying a little power can help the landing be a little "greasier", but I prefer landing power off as it forces me to manage the energy better.  You can always add a touch of power if needed.  A little power definitely helps with smoothness of 40° flaps landings, particularly when just learning to use that setting.  

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I think two things happened to add a little drama to the event. First forgetting I was still at -6 added some speed in ground affect. Second I got a small degree of tail wind in the landing pushing me down the runway. I think to do over I'd gone with 15 flaps and tested a dry run do to the possible tailwind possibility.

 

It was a great experience overall.

 

I love this airplane!

 

I find -6° makes the airplane a little too slippery for pattern work, and it's easy to get too fast.  When I'm approaching the airport I usually slow to under 100kt and use 0° in the pattern.  Also when I'm staying in the pattern to practice landings I just go to 0° flaps on climb out and never change to -6°, since there's really no reason to exceed 100kt in the pattern anyway.

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Perfect.

 

Se it goes to show you can land at different flap settings and different speeds (heaven forbid above stall :eyebrow-1057: ) and the plane will land just fine.

When I practice I practice at all flap settings, speeds and rpm settings because in an emergency it may be anything, but normal.

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for the life of me I can't figure out what camp I'm in. It's screwing with my CT identity!

 

I come over the fence at 50-55, 15 degrees, fly above the runway, let it settle down (patiently) then as its settling I try to keep it in the air for as long as possible and pull back almost at the same time the mains touch.

 

So it's not really a full flare landing it's more that I'm TRYING to make it fly right above the runway and as the speed bleeds that requires a greater AOA which I create with the stick. It always touches down before I stall but the stick is back.

 

As a new owner the biggest gain I made in the quality of my landings was when I changed my objective from "get the plane on the ground" to simply "fly the plane 6 inches above the runway"

 

I carry 2100-2500 rpm to the ground depending on conditions. It has saved my landing a few times now by giving me razor sharp control.

 

What camp am I?

I'm in the same camp and you did a great job explaining it.

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Perfect.

 

Se it goes to show you can land at different flap settings and different speeds (heaven forbid above stall :eyebrow-1057: ) and the plane will land just fine.

When I practice I practice at all flap settings, speeds and rpm settings because in an emergency it may be anything, but normal.

Totally agree my goal is to be comfortable at any configuration. My next work will be on short field landings no obstacle dragging her in full flaps. For fun I'm going to mark 100 ft increments at my home field airport.

 

What's the shortest members have stopped their plane no wind no obstacle?

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Yup Roger I noticed on my mistaken crosswind landing with minus 6 the nose twice came up while slowing down and that surprised me as I haven't felt that since my soft field days in Cessnas.

 

What aerodynamically is happening with the mixture of settings? I'm thinking with the clean and minus 6 clean configuration at slower speeds the elevator has more pitch authority. Flaps in slow speed probably weight the front more!????

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Totally agree my goal is to be comfortable at any configuration. My next work will be on short field landings no obstacle dragging her in full flaps. For fun I'm going to mark 100 ft increments at my home field airport.

What's the shortest members have stopped their plane no wind no obstacle?

I use the "drag in" technique a good bit landing over obstacles in short grass strips, it works great in the CTSW. I usually use 30 flaps, and keep the speed about 55kt using power to hold the altitude. Once over the obstacle, power to idle and hold the attitude until speed decays to 50kt or so, and you will sink very nicely to a good landing. If the obstacle is high or very close to the approach end, you can add a slip as well to come down even faster.

 

I have used the above technique to land at 1250ft grass strip with very tall (50-75ft) trees very close to the end of the runway. I used 48kt and a full slip at flaps 30, and it was easy peasy. A friend took a video and I have posted it before, I'll dig it up and re-post it to this thread.

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