Buckaroo Posted May 7, 2017 Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 Lost my engine today at 1000 agl and landed her dead stick in a foot of alfalfa. The plane is fine and so am I but I really need to find out what happened! I put her down with full flaps and we measured about 250 foot of wheel trenching before the nice upright landing. Here's the situation! I'm running about 15 gallons of fuel doing touch and goes no wind 60 degrees f. About 45 minutes of those I decided to venture away from the field north to check out the lake. In level flight I take a quick look at my left site fuel tube and to my dismay it's empty. Looking quickly to the right tube I'm relieved to see she's got 10 or more gallons showing. Concerned I then bank a little to the left with hopes to flow a little fuel to the left side. After leveling back I check out the right and left tube. NO FUEL in either side! Nothing visible then 30 seconds later I get the horrific sound of no sound. Immediately I establish best glide and successfully picked my field. On the ground what appears in the right fuel tube? 10 gallons of fuel again as witnessed by my partners that came to my rescue at the scene. Thank god ten gallons reappears so I'm not branded as a idiot in fuel management. They witness the fuel condition. A rancher shows up and we load the plane on a flat bed trailer and take it to the hiway. Someone gets 5 gallons of gas and we place that in the left tank. Now the site tubes are indicating 10 right and 5 left. I fire it up and takeoff on the highway for my home airport. Question? What the hell happened? I know fuel starvation but how? And why did the right tube suddenly go dry and then reappear after the forced landing? Thanks for any insight to this as I'm reluctant to fly the machine until I find out. Pictures will follow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cluemeister Posted May 7, 2017 Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 Wow! Not sure I have any advice, but well done staying calm and landing safely! Very impressed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tad Olmsted Posted May 7, 2017 Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 Assuming you have an SW or early LS with a single fuel valve by the key. If you were flying with a list (unnoticed) all the fuel went to the lower fuel cell then the higher wing ran low enough that the pick up started sucking air. Once air is in the lines it gets locked up and is slow to recover. This may be why it didn't keep the engine running after you banked to put the empty wing lower. On the ground, it probably self leveled between the tanks with the engine off and not sucking air. I have seen this many times over the past 10 years of working on CT's. This is why the new models have a "left/off/right" fuel selector. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted May 7, 2017 Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 Sounds like once you had one empty tank your correction unported the right tank fuel out away from the fuel pickup. All you needed to do was fly the ball 1/2 out to keep tanks equal and one full ball out to the left to transfer fuel. Anytime I'm at 5 gallons of fuel on either wing it's time to watch it like a hawk and if you have extra in the other wing it's time to transfer. Without being there you may have transferred some fuel out of the left into the right during the entire flight. 45 minute flight usually won't use 5 gal. in the left tank by itself.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted May 7, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted May 7, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 You can see the right tank is showing 9 gallons. When I noticed my left was empty I checked my right and happily it showed 9 gallons but when I banked left to allow fill of the left tank upon leveling the right showed empty. Then the engine quit. Then after the forced landing the 9 gallons reappears in the right tank. You can see my first 250 foot soft landing!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted May 7, 2017 Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Tad Olmsted said: Assuming you have an SW or early LS with a single fuel valve by the key. If you were flying with a list (unnoticed) all the fuel went to the lower fuel cell then the higher wing ran low enough that the pick up started sucking air. Once air is in the lines it gets locked up and is slow to recover. This may be why it didn't keep the engine running after you banked to put the empty wing lower. On the ground, it probably self leveled between the tanks with the engine off and not sucking air. I have seen this many times over the past 10 years of working on CT's. This is why the new models have a "left/off/right" fuel selector. Tad, first off good to hear from you. I pretty much agree with everything you said, except for the reason they added the Left, Right, Both fuel selector. The reason for the selector in my opinion is because of the fuel return on the 912iS. The fuel for the injection circulates through the system and is returned to the header tank. The header tank has an overflow line that goes up to the left wing only. If you start out with both tanks full it is possible to add more fuel to the left tank causing it to be pumped overboard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted May 7, 2017 Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 Buckaroo, good job getting it on the ground safely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted May 7, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 This is me at the controls and construction of a new hanger to house my CTSW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted May 7, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Cluemeister said: Wow! Not sure I have any advice, but well done staying calm and landing safely! Very impressed. Thank You! It was kinda different flying today! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted May 7, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 12 minutes ago, Tom Baker said: Buckaroo, good job getting it on the ground safely. Thanks! I hope we can arrive at a logical safe conclusion on this episode!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted May 7, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 2 hours ago, Tad Olmsted said: Assuming you have an SW or early LS with a single fuel valve by the key. If you were flying with a list (unnoticed) all the fuel went to the lower fuel cell then the higher wing ran low enough that the pick up started sucking air. Once air is in the lines it gets locked up and is slow to recover. This may be why it didn't keep the engine running after you banked to put the empty wing lower. On the ground, it probably self leveled between the tanks with the engine off and not sucking air. I have seen this many times over the past 10 years of working on CT's. This is why the new models have a "left/off/right" fuel selector. I think I need whatever it takes to fix this! ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted May 7, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 I'm wondering if the right tank has ever fed the engine. The plane sits a little tilted right and my left tank is always in need of fuel and lower visually in the tube. After my episode today I stored the plane with a two inch ramp under the right tire to see if the fuel will migrate left. I'm just wondering where 9 gallons of fuel disappeared to after leveling the plane? One theory I'm considering is maybe the right tank is really only holding 3 gallons or so but indicating 9. Why? After the event we ran and filled a 5 gallon jug of gas to place in the left side. What does it end up showing in the tube 7 or 8 gallons. One person commented that the 4.5 add took it up in the tube almost as high as the right side. So if 9 is only 3 and the left side is empty I'm flying on three gallons of gas. Then I make a left turn and the 3 gallons gets lost in the two unusable chambers between the wings. If this is true the site tube gauges are fricking dangerous! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ls6pilot Posted May 7, 2017 Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 Wow Great job there. Glad you are ok. Have you used the fuel measuring stick to see how much is actually in the wings? Keep us posted. Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdarza Posted May 7, 2017 Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 Oh gosh. Glad you got yourself on the ground safe. I will add FYI - there was a aircraft (not CTSW) but running a 912 that had an engine out here last week. Was lucky to get on the ground safe and no damage. Turned out to be a clogged fuel filter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Bozo Posted May 7, 2017 Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 In the picture of your right fuel gauge it looks to me that the sticker is pasted on higher than it should be. I had that problem because I think that the sticker came off before I owned the plane and when they put it back on they didn't place it correctly. So your 9 gallons in the right take might have only been 5 or 6 but that still does not explain the mystery of the empty indication. You may recalibrate the sticker while you have so little fuel in it and see if it is placed properly Maybe only one piece of the puzzle since still having 5 or 6 should have kept the engine running. When I reglued the sticker I put the 3 gallons in an placed the sticker accordingly. Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted May 7, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 Yes yesterday after putting some fuel in I measured 22 or so gallons and went for a hour cruise and did a couple touch and goes. Then this morning I just climbed in and used the site tubes which seemed logical showing the usual higher 10 or so in the right and lesser 5 or so in the left. I then went and did maybe 5 T&G's and took a break to fly near the lake. That's when my visual on the left startled me as empty but the right was up to 9 or 10. I banked left feeling a little concerned but with still at least 9 showing and three miles to the airport felt safe. Rolling out of the 30 degree or so left turn to level to my shock the right tube was completely empty. I knew I was in trouble and started looking for a field and sure enough she died. Once on the Alfalfa and safe I look at the right tube and as you can see in the pictures I'm sitting with 9 gallons of fuel and a fuel starved forced landing (I think). Please no comments on how I should of dipped the stick or I'm going to get real unfriendly! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ls6pilot Posted May 8, 2017 Report Share Posted May 8, 2017 Buckaroo no such comment. I would have done the same. Just wondering if you have dipped the fuel after the incident to see if maybe your theory below is true. Rich 43 minutes ago, Buckaroo said: One theory I'm considering is maybe the right tank is really only holding 3 gallons or so but indicating 9. Why? After the event we ran and filled a 5 gallon jug of gas to place in the left side. What does it end up showing in the tube 7 or 8 gallons. One person commented that the 4.5 add took it up in the tube almost as high as the right side. So if 9 is only 3 and the left side is empty I'm flying on three gallons of gas. Then I make a left turn and the 3 gallons gets lost in the two unusable chambers between the wings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted May 8, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 8, 2017 3 minutes ago, Flying Bozo said: In the picture of your right fuel gauge it looks to me that the sticker is pasted on higher than it should be. I had that problem because I think that the sticker came off before I owned the plane and when they put it back on they didn't place it correctly. So your 9 gallons in the right take might have only been 5 or 6 but that still does not explain the mystery of the empty indication. You may recalibrate the sticker while you have so little fuel in it and see if it is placed properly Maybe only one piece of the puzzle since still having 5 or 6 should have kept the engine running. When I reglued the sticker I put the 3 gallons in an placed the sticker accordingly. Larry IMG_4357.MOV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted May 8, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 8, 2017 I just tried to put on a movie of my fuel and forced landing situation but it won't work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdarza Posted May 8, 2017 Report Share Posted May 8, 2017 Movie seems to be downloading. (relatively big file though) Might i suggest uploading it to You Tube and attaching a link here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Vance Posted May 8, 2017 Report Share Posted May 8, 2017 I believe there is a check-valve or flap of some sort that aids in holding fuel in a small section of the inboard side to prevent unporting of the fuel line during transient uncoordinated flight when the tanks are low. What if that failed somehow? Doesn't seem that it would only allow flow in the wrong direction, but otherwise, I'm having trouble explaining the zero- fuel scenario. The fuel sticker does look way off, but not too high - too low (i.e the sticker needs to be raised). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted May 8, 2017 Report Share Posted May 8, 2017 2 minutes ago, John Vance said: I believe there is a check-valve or flap of some sort that aids in holding fuel in a small section of the inboard side to prevent unporting of the fuel line during transient uncoordinated flight when the tanks are low. What if that failed somehow? Doesn't seem that it would only allow flow in the wrong direction, but otherwise, I'm having trouble explaining the zero- fuel scenario. The fuel sticker does look way off, but not too high - too low (i.e the sticker needs to be raised). That is in the CTLS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdarza Posted May 8, 2017 Report Share Posted May 8, 2017 For the CTSW, On page 142 (Maintenance Manual Rev 7) you will see the diagram that shows the fuel intake from the tanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT4ME Posted May 8, 2017 Report Share Posted May 8, 2017 The stick is a measure that can be quite inaccurate unless done while the plane is on a known level spot. In the field, like where you ended up, it could be way off, unless you happened to land in a perfectly flat spot. Even while flying, the level can jump from 8 Gallons to nothing with the slightest bank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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