cdarza Posted May 9, 2017 Report Share Posted May 9, 2017 Mr Buckaroo - be careful with the float plane ride - You might get addicted and end up spending lot of $$$ for floats on the CT haha. Im a CTSW but if i had the CTLS, i would have added floats long time ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted May 9, 2017 Report Share Posted May 9, 2017 Depends on how much you want to move over, but could take 30 min. - 1 hr. It is only a 5/16 hose that is more or less gravity flow and it has to travel down the right "A" post through the instrument panel area and then back up the left side "A" post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted May 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 14 minutes ago, cdarza said: Mr Buckaroo - be careful with the float plane ride - You might get addicted and end up spending lot of $$$ for floats on the CT haha. Im a CTSW but if i had the CTLS, i would have added floats long time ago. Floats in my area of Montana would be awesome! I just hope the lake can get us out of the lake!?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted May 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 15 minutes ago, Roger Lee said: Depends on how much you want to move over, but could take 30 min. - 1 hr. It is only a 5/16 hose that is more or less gravity flow and it has to travel down the right "A" post through the instrument panel area and then back up the left side "A" post. So in a hypothetical situation where the left tank is seconds from running dry and the right tube is 3/4 full if I were to push the ball one ball out of center left how long would you get fuel safely to the engine and beginning to fill the left side so the engine wouldn't suck air? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ls6pilot Posted May 10, 2017 Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 I may be wrong but as long as you kept that ball off to the left you would be getting fuel from the right tank (to the engine) until some is transferred to the left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdarza Posted May 10, 2017 Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 I think the second you initiate the "left one ball" skid you would would guarantee yourself fuel from the right tank. Your left tank will for sure be showing Zero fuel. Taking from Rogers estimate, fly perhaps 30 mins to 1 hour with the ball to the left - then fly coordinated. You should now have roughly 5 gallons more on the left tank. I would like to try this out myself on my next joy ride flight just to see how much actually transfers in a given period of time. This wont be a concrete number obviously but just estimate. I was concerned before on a flight where my left tank got down to 2 gallons (est sight tube) and way above 10 gallons on the right. When i initiated the full ball to the left, that 2 gallons on the site tube 'disappears' from the sight tube which was at the time a concern as i didnt quite understand the fuel system. But now i feel comfortable knowing that the right tank is supplying the fuel to the engine and at the same time transferring fuel to the left tank to join the 2 gallons sitting on the outboard side of the left tank. Phew did i get the correct? lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted May 10, 2017 Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 If you ran a tank empty and moved the other fuel out away from the other fuel outlet and the engine quit it should start back up again in a few seconds once you brought the fuel in the one tank back to the pick up tube at the sight tube, choked the engine and opened the throttle and inch or so. It should come right back. FD even tested this if I remember right. Fuel management in a CT is very easy unless you don't know about it. Once you do it's a piece of cake. This is also a good reason to take transition training from someone who knows the aircraft, no matter which aircraft you fly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted May 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 I must admit that Sunday's flight and Alphalfa mow job after six months of research, reading, debriefings from the seller etc. caught me off guard. I now understand the basics of the fuel system on this great aircraft and feel these techniques are totally reasonable! My wife has studied all your responses as well and we feel safe and secure with fuel management techniques. I would recommend strongly that this great resource of tons of valuable information place a big sticky with these instructions and warnings on fuel management for all to read and understand about this aircraft! Many of us are in isolated locations that are not privey to the daily operations of this aircraft! Everything I know about my CT are from my own study. Please consider a sticky attention of new owners with these procedures! It is the proper thing to do! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted May 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 30 minutes ago, Roger Lee said: If you ran a tank empty and moved the other fuel out away from the other fuel outlet and the engine quit it should start back up again in a few seconds once you brought the fuel in the one tank back to the pick up tube at the sight tube, choked the engine and opened the throttle and inch or so. It should come right back. FD even tested this if I remember right. Fuel management in a CT is very easy unless you don't know about it. Once you do it's a piece of cake. This is also a good reason to take transition training from someone who knows the aircraft, no matter which aircraft you fly. Yup all this is new to me and then at 700 feet with a sudden engine lose in order to avoid a stall you have to fly the plane to the ground. Fuel management and the CT should be a huge educational topic or warning to any neophyte with this aircraft! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTMI Posted May 10, 2017 Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 I had to drill into my head that the site tubes are not fuel gauges. Again, the site tubes are not fuel gauges. they couldn't be fuel gauges because depending on the attitude of the aircraft they can read anything between zero and 10 gallons and doesn't tell me if there's more than 10 gallons. What fuel gauge do you know of that's wildly inaccurate and only works when the tank is 1/2 empty or less? The site tubes are not fuel gauges, they are "fuel distribution indicators." Their job isn't to tell you WHAT is in your tank, they just tell you WHERE it is. The most accurate fuel gauge, to tell us what fuel remains is the dynon fuel computer since it uses real fuel burn data and presents how much is left. If the plane doesn't have dynons then use a watch and a calculated hourly fuel burn rate. Of course that requires a starting number to subtract from, and that means using the stick before every flight. Stick tells me how much I started with Dynon tells me how much is left sight tubes tell me where it is When I look at the site tubes all I care about is that there's an equal amount shown in each. I don't rely on arbitrary lines and even more arbitrary levels based on plane attitude to determine how much fuel I have left. I have a computer for that. An expensive one. As for moving the fuel, the best thing I've heard is "the fuel follows the ball." I'll add one more thing to that, "you move the fuel with your feet not your hands" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctfarmer Posted May 10, 2017 Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 1 hour ago, Roger Lee said: If you ran a tank empty and moved the other fuel out away from the other fuel outlet and the engine quit it should start back up again in a few seconds once you brought the fuel in the one tank back to the pick up tube at the sight tube, choked the engine and opened the throttle and inch or so. It should come right back. FD even tested this if I remember right. Fuel management in a CT is very easy unless you don't know about it. Once you do it's a piece of cake. This is also a good reason to take transition training from someone who knows the aircraft, no matter which aircraft you fly. I think this point needs to be reiterated over and over. The fuel pickup and the fuel sight tubes are both located on the inside of each tank. There is an important concept to understand here. If you have fuel showing in any one or both sight tubes, unless you are flying inverted, you must have fuel to the engine. If you have fuel in one sight tube, you can be sure there is fuel to the engine. This however is not a good condition to find yourself as, any increase in your un-coordinated state, can, very quickly, un-port or uncover the fuel pickup in the tank that was showing fuel leading, possibly quite quickly, to fuel starvation. So the condition of fuel starvation in this manner is as follows - you are flying for a period uncoordinated; all fuel in one tank transfers to the other; you continue to fly uncoordinated; all fuel remaining in the other tank, having an outward force component from uncoordinated flight, pushes outward until there is no fuel covering the fuel port. This condition also pushes fuel away from the sight tube, so, in this steady state condition, both tanks will show no fuel in either sight tube. There is fuel in one tank but you cant see it. Summarizing this condition - # you have no fuel in one tank (and obviously no fuel in that sight tube) # you have fuel in the other but it is moved outward uncovering the fuel delivery port (and you have no fuel in this sight tube either as it is moved to the outside of the tank). Under such steady state conditions, if only for a very short period, you will quickly use up fuel in the delivery lines and float bowl and fuel starvation is likely. The more fuel in the tank, the more uncoordinated you can be without starvation occurring in this manner. Bottom line - fly coordinated and the problem is no more. Fly with more fuel and the likelihood of fuel starvation resulting from un-coordinated flight lessens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted May 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 25 minutes ago, CTMI said: I had to drill into my head that the site tubes are not fuel gauges. Again, the site tubes are not fuel gauges. they couldn't be fuel gauges because depending on the attitude of the aircraft they can read anything between zero and 10 gallons and doesn't tell me if there's more than 10 gallons. What fuel gauge do you know of that's wildly inaccurate and only works when the tank is 1/2 empty or less? The site tubes are not fuel gauges, they are "fuel distribution indicators." Their job isn't to tell you WHAT is in your tank, they just tell you WHERE it is. The most accurate fuel gauge, to tell us what fuel remains is the dynon fuel computer since it uses real fuel burn data and presents how much is left. If the plane doesn't have dynons then use a watch and a calculated hourly fuel burn rate. Of course that requires a starting number to subtract from, and that means using the stick before every flight. Stick tells me how much I started with Dynon tells me how much is left sight tubes tell me where it is When I look at the site tubes all I care about is that there's an equal amount shown in each. I don't rely on arbitrary lines and even more arbitrary levels based on plane attitude to determine how much fuel I have left. I have a computer for that. An expensive one. As for moving the fuel, the best thing I've heard is "the fuel follows the ball." I'll add one more thing to that, "you move the fuel with your feet not your hands" Wow this post is kinda like really pragmatic, non nerd and really important and clear! For me my right site tube during my alfalfa field landing in retrospect may of had 8 oz of fuel in the tube only or 8 to 10 gallons of fuel in that right tank! Looking at this whole situation and scenario this sequence of events that led up to my engine failure may be the "perfect storm". Something one would read in a deadly accident report. The CT line of aircraft are wonderful machines but fuel management with these gravitational tanks need to be hard copied and placarded for all to read and fully understand! With so many intelligent responses to my post and so many pilot warnings I think these planes need a special operating understanding to be safe! We're not just flying a aircraft with gravitational free flow tanks with zero monitoring but a aircraft that needs monitoring and technique! This is just common sense! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted May 10, 2017 Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 Plain and simple, the sight tube shows the level of the fuel at the inboard end of the tank. If you are wings level, not slipping, not skidding, with the fuel in range of the sight tube, and know how to read the sight tubes you can acuratly tell how much fuel you have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted May 10, 2017 Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 In my opinion based on knowledge of the fuel system. I will throw this out there. In terms of fuel transfer, the 7.5mm fuel line will flow almost 20 gph. I would expect the transfer rate from one side to the other to be about 5 gph, and maybe more under ideal conditions. For fuel in the tank I would expect that transfer rate to be 20gph or more through the bulkhead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTMI Posted May 10, 2017 Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 39 minutes ago, Tom Baker said: Plain and simple, the sight tube shows the level of the fuel at the inboard end of the tank. If you are wings level, not slipping, not skidding, with the fuel in range of the sight tube, and know how to read the sight tubes you can acuratly tell how much fuel you have. And if there's no turbulence, and if your ball is mounted level, and if your mushroom is mounted level, and if the fuel in the tanks is not sloshing back and forth. That's 9 "ifs." That's a lot of ifs. i do not rely on the sight tubes to tell me how much fuel I have onboard, I just use them to tell me WHERE the fuel is. The dynon, with simple arithmetic as a backup is a far more precise instrument. It's worth noting however that mr baker knows about 1000 times more than I do about these planes. But I do have fresh experience with being new to this, and the reduction of variables affecting my accurate understanding of fuel quantity and management reduces my workload and increases accuracy and my safety. Preference only Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandpiper Posted May 10, 2017 Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 2 hours ago, Buckaroo said: Wow this post is kinda like really pragmatic, non nerd and really important and clear! For me my right site tube during my alfalfa field landing in retrospect may of had 8 oz of fuel in the tube only or 8 to 10 gallons of fuel in that right tank! Looking at this whole situation and scenario this sequence of events that led up to my engine failure may be the "perfect storm". Something one would read in a deadly accident report. The CT line of aircraft are wonderful machines but fuel management with these gravitational tanks need to be hard copied and placarded for all to read and fully understand! With so many intelligent responses to my post and so many pilot warnings I think these planes need a special operating understanding to be safe! We're not just flying a aircraft with gravitational free flow tanks with zero monitoring but a aircraft that needs monitoring and technique! This is just common sense! It has always been my opinion that the CT line of aircraft should have had a left, right, both and off fuel selector. FD argued that such a system would invite fuel mismanagement, that it was better to have the system we have. FD finally changed this with the fuel injected system to include a header tank. This does not mean the non injected system is unsafe. But it does mean that check out in the aircraft should be from someone who actually has experience in it. Just as should happen with any aircraft you are checking out in. And, in a perfect world, this should apply to administration of the Biennial Flight Review. My two cents - worth exactly what you paid for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandpiper Posted May 10, 2017 Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 By the way Buckaroo, good job putting it down with no damage or injuries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted May 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 6 hours ago, sandpiper said: By the way Buckaroo, good job putting it down with no damage or injuries. Thanks! Yes I would of really loved a experienced CT pilot to pay for instruction when I got my plane. I'd also love to be able to run my plane to a local Rotax repair station but there's not one in Montana! Its all do it yourself like everything in Montana! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT_MATT Posted May 10, 2017 Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 Maybe this will help understand the fuel system of a CT (granted this is for an CTLS). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ls6pilot Posted May 10, 2017 Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 Eventually I will be able to figure this for myself but what is an estimate of fuel burn per hour doing touch and goes. Thanks Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tip Posted May 10, 2017 Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 56 minutes ago, Buckaroo said: Thanks! Yes I would of really loved a experienced CT pilot to pay for instruction when I got my plane. I'd also love to be able to run my plane to a local Rotax repair station but there's not one in Montana! Its all do it yourself like everything in Montana! I see hose change issues in your future, if you don't go to a center with CT experience. Fly it to Tom or Roger for a seamless event. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted May 10, 2017 Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 14 hours ago, Buckaroo said: I have two questions on times for results to take place. Looking at the photo of the inside of the tank the first question is: in a turn like mine the other day how long does it take say 8 gallons of fuel to sling out and transfer through those 6 holes to the outside chamber? Next how long does it take fuel to effectively flow from say the right side to the left resulting in a visible improvement in the condition of the site tube? Let's say my right site tube is 3/4 and my left is 1/4 with a full ball left from center how many seconds approximately would one expect both tubes to balance to 1/2? It would take some time, BUT you don't have to get fuel past the baffle to unport the pickup. If the fuel level is low enough, the fuel will slosh out *against* the baffle without passing immediately through it. That could still cause a starvation issue. Don't get hung up on the baffle, it's not really an issue. The problem is having insufficient fuel in the tank to reach the pickup in all flight conditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted May 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 22 minutes ago, Tip said: I see hose change issues in your future, if you don't go to a center with CT experience. Fly it to Tom or Roger for a seamless event. Yes the hose change is due as is the annual. I'm still considering Rocky Mountain Kitbuilders in Fairfield Utah. I would really like Roger or Tom to do the work but 1000 mile run is a tough distance for me. Roger has worked on my plane in the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted May 10, 2017 Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 13 hours ago, Buckaroo said: Concerning my second question which is the important one to me now if traveling I am distracted or senile for a time then all of a sudden notice say my left site tube almost empty but my right say 3/4 with ball full out to the left by right rudder approximately how long does it take to be balanced? As Roger said, that would take a while, but you present an almost impossible scenario. Even assuming that you have ALL your fuel flowing from the left tank (very unlikely), how long would it take to go from 3/4 of a sight tube to almost empty? The answer is probably 1.5hr or more. Have you ever been flying any airplane and not checked the fuel for an hour and a half? The longest I have gone without checking in my CTSW is about a half hour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted May 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 8 minutes ago, FlyingMonkey said: As Roger said, that would take a while, but you present an almost impossible scenario. Even assuming that you have ALL your fuel flowing from the left tank (very unlikely), how long would it take to go from 3/4 of a sight tube to almost empty? The answer is probably 1.5hr or more. Have you ever been flying any airplane and not checked the fuel for an hour and a half? The longest I have gone without checking in my CTSW is about a half hour. I guess the better question is if you're close to a total loss of full say the left tank how long does it take pushing the ball to the left to gain fuel in the left side to avoid a engine loss? Would it be almost immediate or would it take minutes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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