Engine failure today and forced landing.

[FredG]

Tom, I mean bank with a constant heading (i.e., a slip).  I mentioned that in my first post on this topic but did not repeat it in the post with the example calculation.  I am addressing the circumstance in which a pilot wants to transfer fuel by flying in a sustained slip with the ball out of the "cage".  Typically, the further the ball deviates from center, the greater the rate of fuel transfer.  

[Tom Baker]

1 hour ago, FredG said:

Tom, I mean bank with a constant heading (i.e., a slip).  I mentioned that in my first post on this topic but did not repeat it in the post with the example calculation.  I am addressing the circumstance in which a pilot wants to transfer fuel by flying in a sustained slip with the ball out of the "cage".  Typically, the further the ball deviates from center, the greater the rate of fuel transfer.  

.

This is the definition of a bank in regards to a aircraft, "(of an aircraft or vehicle) tilt or cause to tilt sideways in making a turn". This was the reason for my confusion.

[FredG]

Tom, thanks for the clarification.  I should have said "slip".  I was only trying to describe the circumstance whereby one wing is lower than the other an no inertial forces (centrifugal forces) were acting on the fuel in the tanks.  

Edit - Tom, I just looked at the section on slips in the Airplane Flying Handbook.  The Handbook describes the attitude of the wings in a slip as the "bank angle", a use of the term that is inconsistent with the definition you provided.  Is there an agreed upon consensus on what bank does and does not mean? 

[Buckaroo]

A good demonstration on how the fuel follows the ball was discovered by me in today's flight. With the auto pilot on and tracking a heading I slowly pushed the ball one width right out of center hoping to transfer fuel to the lower right tank. After about a minute I could see and feel the right wing lower obviously receiving fuel from the left. It's kind of weird tho when disengaging the AP and in level flight right it first the tube showed even lower followed by filling to the top. I can imagine in the slip state fuel riding in the tip of the tank followed by flowing back.

Are my observations valid?

[Ed Cesnalis]

If your  ball is wrong, which is likely that would account for a wrong tube reading with wings level.  It also accounts for general uneven feeding when wings are level as well as uneven feeding when manuevering.

It's easy to check as I've stated before and you want to rule it out before you make more exotic assumptions.

My experience.

 

[FredG]

Agree with Ed regarding the ball.  The ball in my plane was off when I purchased it.  When level, it was out about 1/2 the width of the ball.  Had to reposition the entire panel (the "mushroom") in order to rig it correctly.  My persistent fuel imbalance problem disappeared.  

[Buckaroo]

I'm experimenting with fuel balancing on each flight. I think my ball is calibrated well but my airplane sits almost 4 inches low to the right in the hanger. I think when I was running 15 gallon flights my left tank would be real low. I've since propped a 1/2 inch shim under the right tire. Now I'm running 25 gallon starts to my local flights. 

[Tom Baker]

1 hour ago, Buckaroo said:

I'm experimenting with fuel balancing on each flight. I think my ball is calibrated well but my airplane sits almost 4 inches low to the right in the hanger. I think when I was running 15 gallon flights my left tank would be real low. I've since propped a 1/2 inch shim under the right tire. Now I'm running 25 gallon starts to my local flights. 

Thinking is one thing, knowing is an other. It is easy enough to check. Level the airplane side to side with a level placed on top of the fuselage above the spar carry through, and then look at the ball.

[Buckaroo]

I'm going out to re-torque the leaky valve cover. I'll put a level on her. 

Thanks 

[Roger Lee]

I find almost all the wing tip measurements from the floor different on CT's and my floor is quite level. These can be caused by a hard landing and that my teak one side, but not really bend it. The differences are usually 2" - 4"

[Buckaroo]

1 hour ago, Roger Lee said:

I find almost all the wing tip measurements from the floor different on CT's and my floor is quite level. These can be caused by a hard landing and that my teak one side, but not really bend it. The differences are usually 2" - 4"

Yes the prior owner had a hard landing which they had to replace the right gear. The rear of the molded flared fuselage gear led wrap is damaged still. One day I want that repaired if possible. My right wing is 3.5 inches lower than the left. 

Today I leveled the plane and checked to ball out and here's the result! 

You can see where prior positioning has occurred. 

Im going to remeasure everything perfectly and remount the ball. Now the dynan will be off I suspect!?

[ctfarmer]

Interesting. So if you start off with more in the right tank resulting from it sitting low on the RHS and proceed with what you think is a coordinated flight, going by your ball, you are potentially pushing even more fuel to the right tank. And from memory, it was your LH tank that drained first prior to your forced landing.

Very interesting. Based on that,  i am going to check my ball accuracy as per Tom's method.

[Buckaroo]

5 hours ago, ctfarmer said:

Interesting. So if you start off with more in the right tank resulting from it sitting low on the RHS and proceed with what you think is a coordinated flight, going by your ball, you are potentially pushing even more fuel to the right tank. And from memory, it was your LH tank that drained first prior to your forced landing.

Very interesting. Based on that,  i am going to check my ball accuracy as per Tom's method.

This is twisting my brain I must say! With this ball out of balance to the axis of the aircraft why with AP on and ball centered does she Track straight and level and when I push the ball right one width does the plane start a right wing lower attitude? 

This is why I'm going back out and have my AP busy look this over again. The left tank is always the fuel user in my plane!?

[Roger Lee]

You'll end up old and gray before you most likely make tank drain equal. Part of the problem is the flat tank design which you can't change and humans behind the controls. They aren't perfect. If you want to level the ball on your instrument fine, but after that just manage the fuel. There's a good chance you might help the left drain, but it may always be there. The huge majority of us just manage the fuel. I know of darn few that have gone the entire route to try and level everything in the panel.

[Buckaroo]

47 minutes ago, Roger Lee said:

You'll end up old and gray before you most likely make tank drain equal. Part of the problem is the flat tank design which you can't change and humans behind the controls. They aren't perfect. If you want to level the ball on your instrument fine, but after that just manage the fuel. There's a good chance you might help the left drain, but it may always be there. The huge majority of us just manage the fuel. I know of darn few that have gone the entire route to try and level everything in the panel.

I agree that's why when I checked level I didn't rip the ball off the dash immediately! My plane flys so well and feels fine and trimmed. All trimmed up she flys straight and level with AP on or off.

im going to study this situation a bit before changing anything.

[Ed Cesnalis]

16 minutes ago, Buckaroo said:

I agree that's why when I checked level I didn't rip the ball off the dash immediately! My plane flys so well and feels fine and trimmed. All trimmed up she flys straight and level with AP on or off.

im going to study this situation a bit before changing anything.

You can't see the nose, you have nothing to line up when you move it a few degrees left or right and keep the wings level.  There is no visual clue of a wings level slight slip/skid in a CT.  In most planes your nose would be off your heading.

[FredG]

Looking at your photo, I see that when the plane is level (be SURE the plane is level), the ball is to the left of the cage.  

So, in flight, if you center the ball, you will have to lower the right wing.  It will appear that fuel will be consumed from the left tank (when in reality, it is being transferred from the left tank to the right tank).  I think this is the same as the point made by CT farmer, above.

To check level of my plane, I take a four foot level and place it gently on the wing.  I then use a digital protractor (good to 0.1 degree) on the level.  The four foot level is not used as a level, it is simply as a rigid beam for making an accurate measurement with the digital protractor. I use the four foot length (rather than something shorter) to avoid being mislead by any minor imperfection in the composite surface at any one place I might make a measurement with the protractor.  I level the plane by making sure that the wings are equally angled to the true horizontal.  

I like having a well rigged ball not just for fuel management but also for ensuring coordination in slow flight and stalls.  

Buckaroo, BTW, with the AP on, it is possible to center the ball with rudder trim. In that case, the plane will hold a heading but with one wing slightly lower than the other (i.e., a slip).  This can also be done without the AP.  Fuel will gradually transfer from the higher wing to the lower wing.The ball leads the pilot to think - incorrectly - that the plane is in coordinated flight when it is not.

Fred G

2006 CTsw E-LSA

[WmInce]

2 hours ago, Roger Lee said:

You'll end up old and gray before you most likely make tank drain equal. Part of the problem is the flat tank design which you can't change and humans behind the controls. They aren't perfect. If you want to level the ball on your instrument fine, but after that just manage the fuel. There's a good chance you might help the left drain, but it may always be there. The huge majority of us just manage the fuel. I know of darn few that have gone the entire route to try and level everything in the panel.

Concur. "Just manage the fuel. " I am not interested in re-engineering or over thinking simplicity. Just learn to work with what you've got. By all means, don't fly around with an empty tank. Learn what that sight tube is telling you. No fuel in the sight tube . . . no fuel to engine (from that tank).

I am a firm believer in "keep it simple."

[FlyingMonkey]

3 hours ago, Roger Lee said:

You'll end up old and gray before you most likely make tank drain equal. Part of the problem is the flat tank design which you can't change and humans behind the controls. 

I am a little surprised FD didn't add a small slope toward the pickups in the bottoms of the tanks.  It would have added little to no additional engineering and construction cost, and could immensely help the fuel porting situation.  Hindsight is 20/20 I guess.

[ls6pilot]

3 hours ago, Ed Cesnalis said:

You can't see the nose, you have nothing to line up when you move it a few degrees left or right and keep the wings level.  There is no visual clue of a wings level slight slip/skid in a CT.  In most planes your nose would be off your heading.

This is why I am thinking about adding a yaw string. It's a heads up indicator. Roger said he tested it and the prop did not affect it. 

I have more time in gliders so I like the yaw string.  Just remember to "step away from the snake."

Rich

[Buckaroo]

18 minutes ago, ls6pilot said:

This is why I am thinking about adding a yaw string. It's a heads up indicator. Roger said he tested it and the prop did not affect it. 

I have more time in gliders so I like the yaw string.  Just remember to "step away from the snake."

Rich

How do you make that and where to mount? I imagine you'll see it slightly right then step left rudder and visa versa!

[Roger Lee]

When I flew helicopter we used a yaw string. Just tape it down right where the white paint joins the windshield. I used it for 2 months while doing some testing and gliding in the CTSW.

[Ed Cesnalis]

4 hours ago, ls6pilot said:

This is why I am thinking about adding a yaw string. It's a heads up indicator. Roger said he tested it and the prop did not affect it. 

I have more time in gliders so I like the yaw string.  Just remember to "step away from the snake."

Rich

I flew with a yaw string on my windshield and didn't trust it but it was probably pretty true.  I later put one out on my left wing with a marker on the trailing edge to show when it was lined up.  That did work and confirmed the ball was worked fine with calibration/correction.

[Buckaroo]

1 hour ago, Ed Cesnalis said:

I flew with a yaw string on my windshield and didn't trust it but it was probably pretty true.  I later put one out on my left wing with a marker on the trailing edge to show when it was lined up.  That did work and confirmed the ball was worked fine with calibration/correction.

I like the old school idea of checking my TQ and Dynan out with a string and tape!????

[Flying Bozo]

The comments here are only my opinion and should be taken as such. Remember opinions are like certain body parts, everyone has one.

First, I think every CTSW airplane feeds fuel more readily from the left tank than from the right tank. Seems like everyone is sort of in agreement on that and my CTSW is no different. For a while I was gassing only the left tank because the right tank always had a lot more in it than the left on. Then I thought that maybe the gas in the right tank was getting stale so I changed my priorities, fill the right tank first. My opinion on the dissimilar fuel flow has something to do with the venting. I had a similar problem with a Cessna 182 where the right tank would actually stay full until the left tank got considerably lower when fuel selector was in "BOTH" as in the CTSW. The venting on the CTSW must be different causing a lower pressure in the right tank allowing the engine to feed from the left tank.

Question?? if you only had 5 gallons remaining in the tanks, (a totally legal condition as only 30 minutes required by FAA reg daytime) where would you want the 5 gallons to be??      2 1/2 in each tank or all 5 gallons in one tank? Personally I would vote for all 5 gallons in one tank, and it would probably be the right tank. If you would rather have 2 1/2 in each tank then you might be sloshing fuel around unventing either or both of the pickups alternatively and sending some air down to the fuel pump. Even if you held the plane perfectly level ( an impossibility with any turbulence at all) then the fuel would move back and forth on the bottom of the tank. But, with all 5 gallons in one tank I could keep the fuel at the pickup with a slight slip providing positive fuel flow to the engine.

Consequently I never try to transfer fuel..(.that is just my personal preference.).. but when getting low on fuel really pay attention to where the fuel is located. Again my opinion when there is plenty of fuel I just don't care if the tanks are not equally level.

Ask yourself where you would like the remaining fuel to be when you are low and that is when most attention has to be paid to keeping it showing in the sight tube with a slight forward slip.

Larry