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CTLS down in Ohio - Engine quit


Roger Fane

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Where do salvaged CTs end up after an accident like this....? I know the Insurance company generally end up with the bits and pieces, but certainly the parts are are salvaged out. Cockpit instruments, seats, flight levers, switches, etc. I'd like a chance to bid on them if possible, particularly since no-one was hurt in this accident.

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Good Job handling the emergency situation!

The Pilot comments:

As the pilot of this aircraft, let me say thanks for the good will. A few things:

 

1. We were hanging upside down for seconds, not minutes.

 

2. The cowling survived the impact. It was removed when the Fire Department arrived so they could disconnect the battery.

 

3. Shannon, my wife, is not only eager to fly with me again, the experience has left her even more confident to fly with me. After all, it's easy to armchair pilot when it's not you in the left seat with no engine, but although the aircraft will probably never fly again (it's insured and I'm insured in it), I got us down well enough that both of us lived to fly its replacement as soon as it arrives. If it weren't for that ravine, which if you're coming toward it perpendicularly looks like a small path until you get close to it, this would have been a total non-event. Conversely, if I'd known at the time that "path" wasn't what it looked like but was actually a deep ravine, I would have simply dumped altitude with a forward slip over the trees and ended up well short of it, right-side up on the other side of it. Are there things I could have done differently? Since I'm sitting in front of a computer instead of a cockpit and I have all the time in the world to think about how it went, it's easy to say yes. Given the information and limited time I had while it was occurring for real, I can't think of much that I would have done differently.

 

4. This was not a fuel exhaustion issue. Over 20 gallons were drained from the tanks afterward. For this aircraft, that's about 4h 30m at normal cruise. It will take some time to determine the cause, but it certainly wasn't because the tanks were dry.

 

Tim

 

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My local airport had a Christmas party last nite and this CTLS was discussed. It went down nearby in Ohio. There was indication that discussions are being held regarding repair of it. I have been told that a CTSW was flipped a few years ago locally and the tail was snapped off in a similar fashion. This CT was repaired and put back into service.

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http://theyeshivawor...618997218676529 CTLS integrity 1 for 2. In fairness, this guy flew into powerlines and destroyed his airplane. He survived the crash in Israel. Kind of a humpty dumpy look. Steve

 

OMG! I'm pretty sure that one won't be getting repaired! Another testimony to the protection offered by the Egg. I'd love to get more details about this incident.

Tim

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  • 1 month later...

Monday this week I stopped by the FBO in Ohio where the CTLS is being held pending crash analysis. This plane is a real mess. Under fuselage is torn up where front wheel folded back into it. Side glass and windshield broken out and front cowlings torn off. Tail snapped off just above the fuselage. All 3 blades of the prop snapped. Main landing gear bent and broken The indication is that the engine abruptly stopped while in the air and would not turn over when restart was attempted. The engine now cannot be turned and appears to be locked up. It was indicated that there will be Rotax engine reps looking at the engine this week. The results will be of interest to all of us who have Rotax engines.

 

I couldn't help but think about pulling the chute while looking over this plane. Hindsight is 20-20 but it appears that pulling the chute would have caused far less damage than what resulted here. I know that as pilots, we are confident that we can bring the plane in during a situation like this. Sure would like to be able to tell myself, "OK, in situation "A", I will definitely pull the chute", but I know it's not this simple.

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Hey Dick,

You bring up a good question. When should I pull the chute? If you look at the Cirrus accidents, pilots in trouble are trying to land them too.

I think part of it is, once you pull the chute, you're a passenger with no more input into the outcome. I've seen the videos where it all worked out great when the chute was employed, but who knows what will happen the next time?

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When to pull the chute is discussed ad nauseum on the Cirrus Owner's site. There have been several fatals where the chute might have saved lives.

 

It's easy to say "I would have pulled". In the heat of battle, its hard to know exactly what you'd do. Many of us have trained repeatedly for engine-outs sans chute, and the Law of Primacy may kick in unless we're VERY well conditioned to think of the chute.

 

A post of mine to COPA from 2006:

 

Last Saturday was the nice little fly-in into Kennesaw, GA.

 

Part of the “hook” was a chance to try out the SimTrain Cirrus simulator nearby.

 

...

 

Scenario 2

 

At some point in the flight, at about 4,000’, the plane entered what seemed to be a spin. I pushed the stick forward, determined the direction of rotation and pushed opposite rudder. I think I retarded the throttle as well. I seemed to be making some progress (I thought) when someone in the peanut gallery said “chute?”. Seemed like a plan and I reached up for the handle, but it was blocked by the cover. I spent a second or two fumbling with the tiny pull-tab on the cover, and then hit the ground. Yikes.

 

Turns out the left wing had departed and the “spin” was unrecoverable.

 

This was a real eye-opener to me. I had wondered why the NY pilots who spun never pulled the chute and was certain I would have. Now I’m not so sure.

 

Observations:

 

1) Once the plane started to “spin” the only term I can think of is “task fixation”. I was 100% wrapped up in recovering from the spin. I’ve done hundreds of spins in the past and managed to recover from each and every one, so why not this one?

 

Warren Zevon (R.I.P.) sang “You’re a whole ‘nother person when you’re scared”. Even in a simulation this was pretty intense and the amount of fixation was remarkable. Kind of like tunnel vision with blinders to any other task.

 

2) IMHO, having the CAPS cover in place could have fatal consequences. In this case, I don’t care what the POH says (and that means something coming from me!). If the cover is a required placard, maybe it could be Velcro’d to the ceiling next to the handle (I think Mike has the “Pull Procedure” laminated in the handle’s recess). Turns out in my scenario I also had the pin in place - again, I blame this on not having my own checklist which I’m very used to. Still, it shows poor use of the checklist which was provided.

 

3) I thought Mike R’s “BAM-touch head-grab handle” exercise was cute but a bit over-the-top. I take it back, and will practice it myself in the future.

 

Similarly, I was impressed when Jeff Seymore briefed the takeoff by showing, on the backup altimeter, the altitude where he would start considering the ‘chute and no longer commit to a straight ahead landing if the engine failed. Again, a good idea which I may incorporate into my own routine.

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Good post FastEddie! It is hard for our pilot instincts not to kick in and think "I can fix this" when something goes wrong. Also most of our training has been done in aircraft that don't have a chute, so it isn't part of that initial training that sticks with us so well. The chute may not be the best in all cases, but it is a nice backup plan for a lot of problems. In the end, our goal should be to get ourselves and our passenger safely on the ground and the chute can do that very well given the time to deploy fully.

 

Couple points...make sure the safety pin is out before you takeoff.

 

Make sure to brief your passenger on what to do in order to deploy the chute, and how to turn off the engine, shut off the fuel etc.

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I hoped to elicit some good discussion with my question regarding use of the chute and this has occured. FastEddieB's input helps me visualize what might be involved when the "oh sh*t event" happens. I sure can see myself being totally absorbed with the task of stopping a spin while ignoring all else. Use of a simulator would be neat to practice scenarios like this to try to figure out when it might be appropriate to pull the chute but most of us don't have the luxury of a simulator. I'll just have to try commiting to memory the spin scenario and hope it can be recalled if needed. I really like Eric's idea of having an altitude "limit" at which the chute is pulled if one's plane is totally out of shape or there just isn't any spot to set down, like in a populated place. I'll work on this. As for the parachute lockout pin, this is one thing that we all should know is a definite no-no to take off with the pin still in place, expecting that this pin can be pulled later "if required". There have been quite a few instances where chutes were not activated due to pins being installed. Talk about being "task fixated"! Pilots were so busy trying to pull the handle that they failed to pull the pin first. TAKE THE PIN OUT BEFORE TAKING OFF. My method of solving this is to put the locking pin on the same chain that my ignition key is on. When my key's in the ignition, the lock is out of the chute handle. Eric's comments on shutting off the engine and shutting off the fuel are also things that must be done but may be forgotten. Based on this discussion, I think I'll re-educate myself to make sure my check list is always accessible and practice getting to the page titled "EMERGENCY PROCEDURE"!

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Good post FastEddie! It is hard for our pilot instincts not to kick in and think "I can fix this" when something goes wrong. Also most of our training has been done in aircraft that don't have a chute, so it isn't part of that initial training that sticks with us so well. The chute may not be the best in all cases, but it is a nice backup plan for a lot of problems. In the end, our goal should be to get ourselves and our passenger safely on the ground and the chute can do that very well given the time to deploy fully.

 

Couple points...make sure the safety pin is out before you takeoff.

 

Make sure to brief your passenger on what to do in order to deploy the chute, and how to turn off the engine, shut off the fuel etc.

 

 

This is good advise, I am careful to brief passenger on seatbelt, door ops. Instruction as to chute, engine off and fuel is some grea advise. Thanks!

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I hoped to elicit some good discussion with my question regarding use of the chute and this has occured. FastEddieB's input helps me visualize what might be involved when the "oh sh*t event" happens. I sure can see myself being totally absorbed with the task of stopping a spin while ignoring all else. Use of a simulator would be neat to practice scenarios like this to try to figure out when it might be appropriate to pull the chute but most of us don't have the luxury of a simulator. I'll just have to try commiting to memory the spin scenario and hope it can be recalled if needed. I really like Eric's idea of having an altitude "limit" at which the chute is pulled if one's plane is totally out of shape or there just isn't any spot to set down, like in a populated place. I'll work on this. As for the parachute lockout pin, this is one thing that we all should know is a definite no-no to take off with the pin still in place, expecting that this pin can be pulled later "if required". There have been quite a few instances where chutes were not activated due to pins being installed. Talk about being "task fixated"! Pilots were so busy trying to pull the handle that they failed to pull the pin first. TAKE THE PIN OUT BEFORE TAKING OFF. My method of solving this is to put the locking pin on the same chain that my ignition key is on. When my key's in the ignition, the lock is out of the chute handle. Eric's comments on shutting off the engine and shutting off the fuel are also things that must be done but may be forgotten. Based on this discussion, I think I'll re-educate myself to make sure my check list is always accessible and practice getting to the page titled "EMERGENCY PROCEDURE"!

 

 

Thanks for the PIREP on the crashed LS. Sounds like it got really banged up. All your suggestions are relivant, thanks again! Mike

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We are all different regarding what it takes to create good learning habits and conditioned responses when confronted with real emergencies. I can remember years ago being drilled in proper aircraft exiting procedures in Airborne School....the last on the list was to look above once you finshed counting 1001, 1002, 1003 to 'Check Canopy' or was it 'Can of Peas'? Anyway, all I really remember was, initially, I skipped that part and looked up only when I felt the shock of the chute opening, only to stare at it see that it was properly deployed with no twists in the suspension lines and no rips etc. It was the only thing after three weeks of this very basic, by the numbers, repetative, did I say repetative, learning process that I was conditioned to do on my first several jumps. The only reason/real event that caused me to open my eyes and look up was the shock of that old T-10 chute opening. As 'they' say, it was apparently a significant emotional event for me, as some of you can also attest, no doubt. Suffice to say if that baby would have not performed that way, well that Red Geogia Clay would have been just a smidge reder. In those days I was physically conditioned but evidently the two weeks of ground and tower training didn't condition me mentally/emotionally to actually perform the list of checks in 'Unusual Attitudes'. Yep, things were different for me when entering the slip streams of C-123s, 130s, and 141s as compared to the prior training from static wooden towers with all kinds of Black Hatted NCOs screaming and styling at my expence. I'm getting there...Regarding working emergency BRS activation procedures into personal training plans, with Dual Instruction, what kind of specific training scenarios, including Unusual Attitudes, would the Forum suggest for a CTSW driver within safe operating limits of a CTSW. I intentially did not mention the equally important scenarios where things are hunkey dorey and the engine quits on climb out with no good landing areas etc...Regards! Doug

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This may not directly apply to the CT/BRS since my Sting has a Galaxy chute but I suspect the analogy is close. The Galaxy fully deployes in 5.8 seconds at 49 kts. Assume you're in an engine out situation and set your speed appropriately for best glide which, in my case, is around 60 kts. Give or take, this results in a 500 fpm descent or 8.3 ft/sec. This means my chute would fully deploy at approximately 50 ft AGL. Double that for a safety factor and you'd have plenty of cushion at 100 ft.

 

But, I'm with Roger, if I'm in an uncontrolled situation I'm going to pull the chute much higher. 400' works for me.

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Mike, your last comments brings another thought to mind. The wing spar box that's overhead and close to our noggins was pretty bloody on the CTLS in Ohio. Probably one more item on the check list is to tighten one's seat belts during emergencies. Having said this however, a few things come to mind. Tightening seat belts may be totally off the chart during a frantic attempt to safely land? If one has the seat full forward the belts may not keep one's head from contacting the spar box? Even if I did tighten them, my seat belts seem to immediately loosen up on me. I don't know how to fix this later point and know that my friend's CTLS also has belts that quickly loosen up after tightening them.

 

A side observation on the Ohio incident. The fuselage in the area of the cockpit was totally intact and was not deformed. The "egg" that we all ride in seems to be very strong and crashworthy. I believe that the plane was pretty much full of fuel and the indication I have is that no fuel was spilled during the crash. I like the fact CT's have the fuel in the wings!

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